JY Your live and let live ethos is laudable however it would appear from the best estimates and studies that it is not shared by many of islam’s followers.

I know its not like we ever do anything in Muslims lands to them and we are just so happy go lucky, Also your suggestion that it is not share dby “many” when it is clear it is a tiny percentage of muslims – how many form 1 billion followers? Its BS to suggest it is “many”

My fear shared by many others is that at it’s core islam is incompatable with the values we hold and the evidence suggests that this fear is not ill founded.

Again this is what they say about us. We invade them they bomb us we blame them they blame us and so the cycle of hate and fear goes on.

Who said all Muslims wear the same clothes ?

You said they had no choice so I assume this meant they had no choice and wore the same clothes. Now you accept that some Muslims wear some things and others wear other things so its not

The wife or daughter of a religious family has no such freedom of choice.

. I am glad you have now changed your position on this point though I am somewhat saddened that you attacked me for your about face 😕

@ vickypea _ i took that the worng way thanks for the clarification and sorry.

how many white muslims are involving themselves in the fighting?

I beleive most of the Chechen and Bosnian muslims would appear caucasian, and as i understand it many have lent there services to the Taliban in Afghanistan and probably else wear.

Also your suggestion that it is not share dby “many” when it is clear it is a tiny percentage of muslims – how many form 1 billion followers? Its BS to suggest it is “many”

There are actually closer to 1.6 billion muslims so the numbers are not that small.

The latest and widely accepted studies show that at least 15% of global followers of islam hold radical views and that a further 15-25% are strongly islamist. You should read that Pew report or the Gallup polls before you make accusations of BS. Conservative estimates show there are between 150-250 million radical followers of islam.

It’s reassuring to think 99% of muslims are progressive it’s also very, very wrong.

I can find Pew but not an article Link please? genuine as interested.

I suppsoe much will depend on the definition of radical and strongly

Pew – who i had never heard of , thanks interesting research- has that 20% if americans post online about religion and listen to religious radio or tv. Is that radical or strongly? I dont know tbh

I don’t think many people do “hate Islam”, they hate the extreme fundamentalist views held by a minority.

The problem is that some (many?) directly equate one with the other. They see a muslim extremist and by association, all muslims are therefore extremists.

I can’t be arsed reading or watching it/anything.

But all religion is bollox. And you can quote me on that.

+1, the world would be a much nicer place without the men with beards who wear dresses and live in the sky, or rather, without the nutter element that the bearded dress wearing sky dwelling men attract.

Is freemasonry a religion?

This is the link http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

I think they have been pretty careful about what defines radical so as to not encourage cries of Islamaphobia, it’s interesting to see that for example in South Asia 84% want shira to be the law of the land. Of that 84%, 81% believe in severe coporal punishment for criminals (lashing, amputation etc)and 76% favour execution of apostates. Those are big and pretty scary numbers. Even in places like Turkey the numbers are north of 10%. Continually saying its a tiny minority is completely wrong.

Not seeing any question on fundamental or strongly muslim
Most muslims want to live as muslims. is that really a surprise? Most liberal westerners want to live like that. Again not surprising.
Most westerners want to live as secularist liberals

To be clear some of the attitudes expressed did surprise but i dont think it quite supports your claim
For example its no real surprise a muslim is happy to live under Sharia law as they already do pretty much,. It is not surprising they think we should all live under Sharia law either. I suspect we are meant to think this is fundamentalism. However I would imagine 90% + of westerners think all should live under “our” law even the religious. I suspect we dont call that radical or fundamentalist though.
Its way to detailed to be discussed on STW unless you wish to it point by point but i suspect everyone would lose the will to live.
Cheers though Interesting reading

its no real surprise a muslim is happy to live under Sharia law as they already do pretty much,. It is not surprising they think we should all live under Sharia law either. I suspect we are meant to think this is fundamentalism. However I would imagine 90% + of westerners think all should live under “our” law even the religious. I suspect we don’t call that radical or fundamentalist though.

I agree with this….. mostly.

The question is about what people then do about it? Yes you can believe it, but what does that belief drive you to DO?

In the UK – I can come on a cycling forum and say: “your god’s made up – a complete fairytale”, expecting a good flaming….. but nobody is going to come around to my house and stone me and my family to death (hopefully).

Unless the middle east is separated into 100+ tiny, single-religion states – and the entire population of the region re-settled according to their beliefs, people are going top have to accept that the laws of the land need to account for differing beliefs…. ie: an effective separation of church and state.

Depressingly – this concept is so foreign in some parts of the world that it’s almost unthinkable, at the point that mobs are stoning people to death in the streets for suspected blasphemy – how are you ever going to move them to a position whereby multiculturalism is accepted? Do we give them the hundreds of years (or however long) it took the UK? What atrocities are going to happen in that time, and will our consciences allow us to watch it unfolding on TV and not do anything about it?

I’m absolutely not advocating a “keep out of it and let them kill each other/sort it our for themselves” approach….. but I just can’t think of any intervention that isn’t just going to propagate the violence.

Mass-Hypnosis – that might work.

Muslim nations in history have been some of the most tolerant, advanced, and cosmopolitan societies – indeed far more so than other religious societies.

teamhurtmore, can you clarify time periods and specific societies you are referring to?

Baghdad under the last Caliphate – yes, the irony is obvious.

I thought you might be referring to Baghdad. It is indeed true that during the Islamic golden age (early 9th century), Baghdad was a centre of culture and civility virtually unparalleled anywhere else at the time, but I would just take issue with your comparison to ‘other religious societies’.

After all, there have been moments of great flourishing and moments of great corruption across every civilisation and religious culture.

but nobody is going to come around to my house and stone me and my family to death (hopefully).

Didn’t it also used to be said that “Nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition”?

Yeah sorry…. that entire post was a bit pythonesque

“your god’s made up – a complete fairytale”

‘morning, everybody.

To me, the writer of that article is attempting to shut down criticism of religion by comparing it with racism.

@Tom yes exactly

JY you’ve confused yourself. Not all Muslims where the same clothes, I never said that. But in certain socieities/countries (like Saudi) the Burka is required for Muslim women.

Jam you have two principles – blaming me and the palestians 🙄

RE: that pew link and the figures there about wanting to live under Sharia Law and supporting corporal punishment etc.

If you were being polled about that kind of thing, in that society, isn’t it possible that you would say you agree even if you didn’t?

I’m not saying that they’re all lying, far from it, but you have to wonder how much of that is ‘giving the answer expected of you’ responses, especially if you think everyone else around you supports it. Could be a tiny number, could be loads, very difficult to find out I would think…

Although this is a very telling snippet that we seem to have glossed over:

“Overwhelming percentages of Muslims in many countries want Islamic law (sharia) to be the official law of the land, according to a worldwide survey by the Pew Research Center. But many supporters of sharia say it should apply only to their country’s Muslim population“

Moreover, Muslims are not equally comfortable with all aspects of sharia: While most favor using religious law in family and property disputes, fewer support the application of severe punishments – such as whippings or cutting off hands – in criminal cases. The survey also shows that Muslims differ widely in how they interpret certain aspects of sharia, including whether divorce and family planning are morally acceptabl

Also hints at a lot of variation, so simply saying ‘Most Muslims support Sharia and corporal punishment’ is pretty misleading

Sounds more tolerant when you put it that way, although then I guess it brings up the question of defining the Muslim population.

I do find a bizarre conflict in the figures in South Asia for supporting Sharia only for Muslims, versus the figures for punishment for leaving Islam.

What if you decide to renounce your faith, do you get punished according to Shariah Law, or let off the hook as you’re no longer part of the Muslim population – colour me confused.

@Junkyard – just saw your post. Glad you were ok with my clarification 🙂

No probs Vpea
I think you would get similar response here

Should the law apply above religious views/laws

We would get high support here but we would not say we were westerner radicals or extremists for saying this.
Its complicated.
as for the post above about how we are free to choose and we dont force them to live like us – we do to some degree. See France banning the Burkha – is this really any different from making everyone live under Sharia law as we make Muslism live under our law, Woudl this be called extremism?

Both sides do the same things basically, Which side you view as extreme depends on which side of the divide you sit.
It is as much about perception as reality

Although this is a very telling snippet that we seem to have glossed over:

“Overwhelming percentages of Muslims in many countries want Islamic law (sharia) to be the official law of the land, according to a worldwide survey by the Pew Research Center. But many supporters of sharia say it should apply only to their country’s Muslim population“[/quote]

I don’t see how it can be the law of the land but only apply to some.

Which raises even more questions:

So are the non-muslims allowed to break sharia laws without penalty?
What system would cover a dispute between a muslim and a non-muslim?