Which is fine, but where is the appropriate level of racing for the first 5 years of improvement, or for the guys that are simply not as dedicated or as fit. Where are the equivalent of division 3/4 as it were? It doesn’t exist, and without that level for people to progress through and still feel like they are competing with others on a similar level then the sport is going to stagnate and decline.

This is the problem with competitive cycling in general – there is no ‘Sunday League’. Even in the most inclusive discipline, CX, you’ve got very fit (both amongst other cyclists and certainly in the general population) folk finishing absolutely nowhere because the sharp end is really very sharp.

Yes, i agree. Can’t speak for cx, but certainly road is in the same boat.
I think thats why sportives are so popular, it allows the masses of fit (but not uber fit) folk out there to go ‘race’ even though its not a race.
And you can hardly blame them for it either, for an average rider, looking at the speeds seen in some 3/4 races must seem so far out of reach as to be not even worth trying.
You summed it up really well with the term ‘Sunday League’

On the other hand though, why should it be easy? Cycling is bloody hard work and even if there were, say, a 5th cat for road or ‘beginner’ for XC, what would the cutoff be? Only those who can’t average 18mph for an hour? Never been in the top 10 of a Strava segment?
There’ll still be someone faster either because they just turn up strong, are sandbagging, or because BC have given them a stupid licence category.

Granted, its always going to be hard work taking part in a cycle race, but clearly from my posts in this thread i think there should be racing available at roughly your level whether you can average 10mph or 30mph.
Literally any other sport you can show up, practice for 2-3 months to get the basics, and then get stuck in with others of your own ability level – why should cycling be any different?

It’s called enduro and as stated before is on the rise.

fitness is important, but not the only metric that determines performance.

lol, get a grip.
The way enduro is headed a beginner would probably have a horrific smash and end in hospital before the end of stage 1.

Certanly meets the requirement as a racing format for fat lazy folks though *raises flame shield*

I rode with an enduro bloke on a YT Capra yesterday. After following me at pace down a piece of single track he said “I can keep up, but only a bit at a time, there’s no way I’m doing that for an hour and twenty minutes” Later he pointed and laughed as I failed to get my 100mm travel bike over a -significantly sized – log pile.

There’s the difference.

fifeandy – Member

The way enduro is headed a beginner would probably have a horrific smash and end in hospital before the end of stage 1.

If they’re unskilled and decide to enter a high end race, sure. There’s not as many entry level events out there as I’d like but there’s still enough to let people give it a go without inevitable #endurodeath.

The comparison with enduro is interesting actually, if you’re willing to think about it like a grown up.

XC = categories by ability, and by age after 40
Enduro = categories by age, plus elite

You need to be very, very good to get a podium or even top 10 in any (male) category in an enduro.

By contrast I was top 10 in the last two XC races I did (and I don’t think I’m a sandbagger).

Are you possibly just entering the wrong races fifeandy?

I don’t actually have a choice of races, its SXC or nothing, there are no ‘local’ level races, or if there are they are so badly publicised that even someone actively looking for them cant find them.

I’m under no illusion that the situation is better in some areas of the country, but we’ve had enough people say a similar thing to know its fairly widespread outside the southeast.

@Northwind, what are these noob friendly enduro’s you mentioned? Only one i know of is Comrie croft, and even that has 1 stage thats hardly entry level.

Edit: Just remembered the two muckmedden events

Also image is a huge issue in the UK. Chipps can say there is no interest and BC are to blame, but he needs a hard look in the mirror, as this site / mag promotes almost zero XC racing. How will people do something or become interested if they aren’t aware of it?

To be fair the website has aided a few series, the mag hasn’t

Getting into print is harder, results are boring, interesting stories hard to come by, pictures not as dramatic as they need to be etc etc

I understand that organisers want people to attend the races but I don’t feel that they should water down their races so people attend. For me, racing is racing. You strap on a plate, sharpen you elbows and race. I don’t mean be rude or anything but it’s meant to be competitive.

But there needs to be gateway events, it can be done but the organiser needs to want to do it and needs support from media, sponsors and trade

My local series (Midweek Madness) seems to attract a good spread of abilities and I’m seeing some crossover from enduro and DH. I don’t think the future is necessarily bleak for XC

the courses are essentially long CX events, but it’s XC so not all bad

This is the problem with competitive cycling in general – there is no ‘Sunday League’. Even in the most inclusive discipline, CX, you’ve got very fit (both amongst other cyclists and certainly in the general population) folk finishing absolutely nowhere because the sharp end is really very sharp.

The thing is in cx everyone is happy because it’s solely age based, so the ability spread is huge. I think it also helps being time orientated, everyone finishes within 5-10 minutes of the cut off, whether they’ve done 6 laps or twelve, so there is a buzz and a good bit of banter around the finish line. Compare to xc where if you’ve been hammered the person in front of you might have finished 10 minutes ago and already be in the car and on the way home!

If xc racing was popular there would be the ‘Sunday league’ as fun cat would have a sizeable group in and this would feed into open or sport as people got more confident. I guess to a certain extent it’s cyclical but I think it would need a concerted effort from interested parties and the media to turn the tide, it may not even be possible. Even when local below-regional events are put on htey are poorly attended round here, despite getting rave reviews by people who do have a crack

I don’t actually have a choice of races, its SXC or nothing, there are no ‘local’ level races, or if there are they are so badly publicised that even someone actively looking for them cant find them.

And people are not deciding to fill the void

If xc racing was popular there would be the ‘Sunday league’ as fun cat would have a sizeable group in and this would feed into open or sport as people got more confident. I guess to a certain extent it’s cyclical but I think it would need a concerted effort from interested parties and the media to turn the tide, it may not even be possible. Even when local below-regional events are put on htey are poorly attended round here.

It is getting the critical mass in people willing to do the work to make an event work well that stops this, anyone who does step up eventually burns out or has their available time compromised at some point

CX works because the road clubs structure essentially manages this issue, mtbers don’t organise in the same way so it doesn’t work

i havent raced xc for maybe 7 or 8 years. but i was going to enter the landegla xc race this weekend which i now cant. Can anyone reccomend an xc race in the west midlands/ wales are in the next couple of months? I would prefer it to be a bit more techy rather than racing round fields.

The sandbaggers are people who enter in a lower class than they’re capable of?

I only entered a few races before I was old enough to be a veteran, and didn’t have a clue what any of the classes meant, so now I’m a vet I don’t have to worry about points and stuff I just do it for fun and a challenge.

The 1.5hr Gorricks are really good fun, the technicality is about right for me too. Have had some really good races where I’ve raced with people over a lap or so thinking they’re going to leave me behind soon and suddenly I get past them.

The longer Gorricks I’ve sometimes spent half of riding solo, it’s nice to eventually find another rider. This years Big Dog was more technical than the Gorricks I think, but I did really enjoy the first 3 hours great fun. But once the fatigue set in, it very quickly became far too technical & hilly and I literally lost the will.

CX doesn’t appeal I don’t have the bike for it, and for me it seems a bit too half-hearted approach to off-road.

@big n daft, in Wales the regional series has individual races organised by separate clubs so same as cx.

the courses are essentially long CX events, but it’s XC so not all bad

Sutton Manor was a bit tame but I’d say the ones I did at Haigh Hall & Clayton Vale were good old fashioned XC. Lee Quarry must have a few techy bits too?

Fifeandy – It seems odd that the series you enter has no open category – is it intended for serious racers only? Could it be a geographical thing that there are just not enough elite/expert racers within range?

EDIT: And it’s funny that we don’t get people complaining the competition is too stiff in enduro. Possibly because you don’t get “dropped” in the same way. Though it is depressing if you keep getting caught on your stage.

The sportive comparison is interesting.

Free weeks ago I did the Viking Challenge. A non-competitive 35 or 50km XC event. You were given a time for the course but there was no official race result as such (the course used bridleways so obviously no legal racing).

The riding was non-technical on the whole (except for a few muddy sections) but was one of the most fun days out I’ve had on a bike. Riding with mates, raising a bit for charity, and sharing the event with 1500 other ‘grass roots’ riders.

Maybe this is where entry level XC is heading? No real competitive pressure other than to get round (and for some that was a true challenge to fitness and/or equipment).

Ticks all the boxes for participation, but wouldn’t easily bridge the gap into ‘proper’ XC racing.

Them sort of xc events seem very popular yes. Gorrick do a few too and always well attended

XC Sportives…

CRC Marathons? Or whoever the sponsor is now..?

Sutton Manor was a bit tame but I’d say the ones I did at Haigh Hall & Clayton Vale were good old fashioned XC. Lee Quarry must have a few techy bits too?

Clayton Vale is not really technical apart from a few rollers

The Lee Quarry events avoid the technical parts of the site

Think Scott are the title sponsor now.
Did them in 2011 as they were a great weekend of riding with a road sportive Saturday and MTB marathon Sunday.
They did away with the road events though, and its a bit far to travel to wales for 1 bike ride.
Definitely more of a social atmosphere to MTB marathons than the wannabe racer syndrome all to obvious in many road events.

fifeandy – Member

@Northwind, what are these noob friendly enduro’s you mentioned? Only one i know of is Comrie croft, and even that has 1 stage thats hardly entry level.

Pretty much all the muckmedden events fit the bill, they’d be a great way to try your hand at enduro.

chakaping – Member

And it’s funny that we don’t get people complaining the competition is too stiff in enduro. Possibly because you don’t get “dropped” in the same way. Though it is depressing if you keep getting caught on your stage.

That’s the great thing about Enduro for average riders (like me). You can feel like you’re a fast, fit, riding god and have fun all day right up to the point where you swap your transponder for a print out of disappointing stage times.

@Northwind, i think the main thing that puts me off the Perth and Falkirk muckmedden events is they are so short. ~90 mins riding even on a trail bike rather than a fast bike, and i’ve got to be honest and say being a moderately anti-social git i’m all about the riding and not so much the atmosphere etc afterwards.

Events like that in general are a good thing though and should be encouraged.

For me i’d be more interested in a couple of fairly decent big riding days EWS style, just with more mellow timed sections.
For example opening all the gates and running a stage down gypsy glen would be my cup of tea.

Guess that shows my heart is still more in an XC style event and why i find it dissapointing there aren’t more opportunities for it.

The Wiggle mtb sportive things are well attended as I understand.

I’ve seen (and been) a total beginner with no idea what I’m doing and been dropped within 300m and spent the last 2/3 of races on my own. When only 2 or 3 beginners turn up it’s likely they don’t really get to race, as said already, the pace of an XC race is eye opening. The fun of XC is the close racing with people of similar fitness/skill. You remember the battles not your overall position.

I think one solution would be to run a total beginner race at every xc event, but make it a single lap or very short time, but make entry free. That way you’d get more people just giving it a go and hopefully sticking with it.

I’d just like them to change the name from ‘Fun’.

It somehow degrades the class and people laugh and mock me if i tell them i came in the top 50% of the fun class… They seem to imagine people riding round dressed as Santa and having spokey dokeys on !

That’s a valid point weeksy, when I got back into racing, first race I entered sport for the same reason (and a misguided sense of fitness from strava) got absolutely annihilated rode round alone feeling like a ****. Thankfully the few spectators were super encouraging and I’m a stubborn bloke so the humiliation just made we want to get fir enough.

However, what do you call it? I’d almost say re-name and combine fun and open as sport, using a fun distance, then sport could be called enthusiast or something (giving it an e name with elite and expert). A bigger length gap between the ranking and non ranking events would reduce the number of fast guys in the non-ranking race, pushing up the number in midfield of the bottom rung ranked events too. So sport (fun and open) 2 laps, enthusiast (old sport cat) 4 laps and upwards to elite. More I think that would sort the category issue, then it’s just a case of sparking the idea of racing with more people!

I suppose if you wanted to have categories with sensible names then you could have:
Entry
Enthusiast
Expert
Elite

Entry would be for first-timers, beginners, etc. Enthusiast for the weekend riders, people who can ride but don’t take it too seriously. Expert and Elite for the properly fast/serious lot on carbon hardtails 😉

Not into 2 lap races. Results in 3 hr drives for 40min race.
I’d think that anyone even thinking about racing XC should be capable of riding 90mins.

I would like to live somewhere where something like the WORCA Toonie Races happened. I know it’s not XC as we know it, but it looks excellent.

🙂

Blimey this thread is a tough one for someone in my shoes, one of the organisers at the SouthernXC!!

All of this XC chat is just brilliant, your opinion is what helps us improve, and improve we must because the one thing that matters is participation, without critical mass the series can’t run 😕

To increase participation we need to make XC attractive to all of you who haven’t had a go or have and been put off for one of the numerous reasons – while we are never going to tick everyone’s box we must try so please keep this thread going!!

Adam_Buckland – Member

Blimey this thread is a tough one for someone in my shoes, one of the organisers at the SouthernXC!!

All of this XC chat is just brilliant, all of the opinion is what helps us improve and improve we must because the one thing that matters is participation, without critical mass the series can’t run

To increase participation we need to make XC attractive to all of you who haven’t had a go or have and been put off for one of the numerous reasons – while we are never going to tick everyone’s box we must try so please keep this thread going!!

Has it given you any ideas ? I seem to see a LOT less XC stuff in the summer… Whilst it’s fun sometimes in the mud, i’d much rather find myself riding on a nice summer morning than a wet and horrible foggy morning.

CX has a Novice category, why couldnt that happen in XC? I appreciate it needs policing, but anyone with points on a BC licence / a ranking wouldnt be allowed to enter. Or similar…

@weeksy, i agree, but I believe participation is even lower in summer hols.

@fifeandy, but you don’t currently race in fun so would have standard race length. Point taken about driving distance, but the lap length would be the same for what fun is now, and for the slower open guys 2 laps of better racing (not getting slammed and riding alone) must be more rewarding than an hour of disillusionment? Faster open guys easily can race at the current sport level. At the Nationals lap times put me in the top third of open when I’m racing sport and getting bottom half to bottom third placing so there is significant overlap.

@adam – seems like southern xc is one of the few healthy series so your doing something right!

@kryton, we only have novice women, all men just get lumped in senior and it works.

CX has a Novice category, why couldnt that happen in XC? I appreciate it needs policing, but anyone with points on a BC licence / a ranking wouldnt be allowed to enter. Or similar…

Part of the problem is having someone to go through entries and check that everyone in a Novice category doesn’t have a BC license or hasn’t been racing various other, much higher level, events previously.
It’s a fairly time consuming task and from speaking to friends who’ve organised events, they just don’t have the time to do this.

seem to see a LOT less XC stuff in the summer…

I think that would be a great idea to have short course XC stuff.

Not a big lap or a long race – just an evening flat out blast. Could be a runner? Particularly with better weather? It has to be said that a UK winter can put off even the most determined at times!

Interesting thread which I’ve skimmed as in a bit of a rush.

A few points from my perspective:

XCRampage is boring. In the dry- the course is rubbish. Perhaps rd 1 was packed with people hoping they’d spiced it up then getting disappointed?
There’s also some quite arrogant guys racing there- I didn’t find it friendly at all this year.

CX gives you ‘racing’. It’s a vicious circle isn’t it. If more people are riding CX, then that’s where you have to go to get a good spread of wheel to wheel action. Having a shorter course helps too as you don’t feel as dejected if you get dropped. Wessex have also created some quality courses too! Really good fun.

Gorricks are varied and fun and retain a laid back atmosphere. Despite the leading laptimes being similar across Fun, Open and Sport, you know there will be some baggy shorted newbies and enthusiasts to race. They also get their results out pronto (as did XCRampage this year).

Weeksy- you can’t have it both ways. You can’t pour scorn on ‘proper training’ one minute, then moan that everyone else are too fit the next.

Culture- I think we are too pompous about stuff over here. For me- the roadie scene seems far too intimidating compared to other countries. YouTube is packed with friendly looking Cat5 Crit races around industrial estates in the USA and Oz. Yet there’s nothing that I’ve found that seems remotely accessible over here.
Perhaps XC racing has the same image problem to non-racers?

Weeksy- you can’t have it both ways. You can’t pour scorn on ‘proper training’ one minute, then moan that everyone else are too fit the next.

Of course i can. Just watch 🙂

(but in my defence, i’ve not complained about their fitness, more that there doesn’t seem to be a lot of ‘normal’ riders)

Look at it this way, if i go to Swinley, i’m not passed by many guys. However i’m at the back end of a race field…

The question is… how do we/they get the regular guys to enter ? You can’t tell me they’re not competitive, Strava figures show me that a massive number of people are both riding and timing themselves, you don’t really time yourself unless you’re working for goals… be that time, distance or speed, but all essentially a competitive aspect within the riding.

Part of the problem is having someone to go through entries and check that everyone in a Novice category doesn’t have a BC license or hasn’t been racing various other, much higher level, events previously.

That’s something BC could fix if they wanted to by creating a fairly trivial “fuzzy match” engine for organisers to check name lists against. Bulk upload a list of entrants in a standardised format (name and DOB as surname;first name;JJ/MM/YYYY) and it returns a result list ( no licencee/potential licensee number(s) to check/confirmed licencee number and category ). This would make organising groups by licence category fairly trivial and fairly easily allow organisers to enforce the sort of rules where you can only enter a higher level than your current category, not lower.

Just saying that if the time it takes organisers is the only reason that improvements aren’t being made it wouldn’t be that hard to fix if BC really wanted it to happen