Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 367 total)
  • XC numbers down?
  • adsh
    Free Member

    Any one else noticing smaller classes in XC events? To me numbers seemed down at TIYS and my local Banjo events plus a number of larger events cancelling?

    Where is everyone going?

    fifeandy
    Free Member

    At a guess anywhere else that doesn’t require you to be super fit to not be dropped in the first minute in the ‘entry level’ sport class.

    Oh, and did i forget to mention driving 2-4hrs to get to said event to get dropped and ride 90mins solo?

    mboy
    Free Member

    When a reigning national champ can’t get sorted with sponsorship for the next season, it kinda says just how unimportant/irrelevant/out of date the race format is.

    Sad really, but that’s what’s happened!

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    fifeandy
    Free Member

    Well, you say its irrelevant and out of date, but RBTV still devote more airtime to it than DH, and don’t do any TV coverage of Enduro at all (for obvious reasons).

    Massive barrier to entry, poor availability of races and no magazine coverage = incredibly hard to attract and retain new blood.

    cloudnine
    Free Member

    Everyones now riding CX..

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    Where is everyone going?

    Enduro, CX.

    ****, em – it makes my results look better.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    It’s endurance rather than XCO but the Glentress Seven went on sale tonight, I’ll give you five scottish pence if it doesn’t sell out

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Massive barrier to entry, poor availability of races and no magazine coverage = incredibly hard to attract and retain new blood.

    Massive Barrier? Much easier to enter than DH, just turn up and enter the sport/fun cat
    Races? Not sure of the UK scene
    Mag Coverage? Do people read them anymore? http://www.pinkbike.com/news/racing/ – Out of season so not much XC in there at the moment but loads of writeups from all round the world

    Personally

    At a guess anywhere else that doesn’t require you to be super fit to not be dropped in the first minute in the ‘entry level’ sport class.

    Oh, and did i forget to mention driving 2-4hrs to get to said event to get dropped and ride 90mins solo?

    Race structure is more important, had a few first time Enduroists racing Enduro yesterday, all of them loved it, race wasn’t over after the first climb, social, friendly and fun.

    The traditional XC race is a tough one but breaking the cats down a bit, having proper fun ones and etc. might help.

    For me multi day/stage racing is much more fun, more demanding and a lot more rewarding.

    ferrals
    Free Member

    Been puzzling this since I got back into xc racing a few years ago.

    I blame the media in making xc uncool to a large extent. And I guess the rise in popularity of road riding/racing.

    It’s a downwards spiral, quite often no-one racing fun in Welsh series so if a newcomer turns up they’ll be racing on their own, not exactly fun and unlikely to do it again.

    Agree re. Sports cat, I’m not horribly unfit and still have to train very hard to end up not totally last. But it is the stepping stone to elite for fast juniors, maybe more should be pushed to expert

    I’m certainly enjoying cx more now, less dangerous and bigger fields mean a better race experiance.

    weeksy
    Full Member

    I noticed that the first XC Rampage was RAMMED with people, but the meetings after that were dead.. i don’t know how many turned up this weekend because we left straight after the 8’s race, but there were only 4-5 vehicles i saw, which considering for race 1 we saw about 30… was quite surprising.

    Looking at the XC Rampage results, it seems my thoughts were correct, a LOT of people raced only round 1.

    The local CX racing has been rammed each and every weekend.

    mrlebowski
    Free Member

    Not sure XC is dying at all..

    Been racing for years & the events (Gorrick mostly) always seem to have a good turn out..

    Though I’ll agree I don’t think there is much coverage of XC racing, particularly in ST..

    fifeandy
    Free Member

    @mike

    The barrier to entry is that sport cat is broken to the point of being intimidating. Round here, guys winning sport cat are nearing 5W/kg ftp and need near 4W/kg not to come last.

    Given that most fit recreational ridersvare more likely to be in the 3-3.6W/kg range and not so fit/beginners at 2.5-3W/kg, there is literally nothing for them.

    Add to that our national Scottish series only has 6 races, and pretty much nothing in terms of regional races.

    Whilst in theory yes you are right, you can just turn up and race, in reality its a difficult and demoralising exercise to do so.

    ghostlymachine
    Free Member

    Numbers have dipped from the glory days of the mid/late 90’s. Used to see around 60-70 riders in sport, 40+ experts and maybe 30+ Elites for a regional series round. Probably between 50 and 75% of each field were going to get completely destroyed on the first lap and half of those should have been pulled out on the second. Last Regional i went to in the UK was only 10 or 12 elites and they started them with the less than 20 experts. Sport was about 35 or 40. That was 08 or 09. There are exceptions. I’ve seen the pictures of some of the better organised events with more riders (Gorricks as mentioned up there)

    So they go to enduro and marathon, or CX. Where you can ride your own event and “achieve” something. Even if it’s just a finishing time. Or a race with someone of similar ability.

    Probably tied into the “4 minute mile with a bit of training” mentality. People go out for a ride with a mid pack XC rider, beat them on a couple of bits and think that this XC stuff must be easy, you see that in posts on here, people claiming to be “dead fast, i pass loads of people on x,y,z trailcenter”, it’s not racing, you probably aren’t actually that fast. XC will hurt and you’ll probably get dropped. You get the same thing on the road too.

    How far do you drop the entry level?

    Do you have to start doing middle marker events (Like in TTs)? Or have a completely new points/promotion rulebook (like on the road). So a good rider might do round one of a series as sport, round 2 as expert and finish off as an elite………

    Meh, i’m too old to care.

    jimwah
    Free Member

    I used to race occasionally as a teenager and it was brilliant fun, thought I’d have another swing at it a few years ago (20 yrs later) – entered at the entry level and started at the back with 2 other first time racers, I was surprised what a comprehensive & immediate smashing we got. Within 2 minutes we were riding alone, after lap 2 we got ridiculed by a couple of spectators for being so far behind. Thoroughly shit experience, won’t bother again.

    It’s impressive what the level of fitness is, even at the entry level, but it’s also a massive hurdle to getting back in racing.

    ghostlymachine
    Free Member

    So people think it’s easier than it is, and the top end of entry level is too fast.

    Time to start promoting the sandbaggers.

    weeksy
    Full Member

    ghostlymachine – Member

    So people think it’s easier than it is, and the top end of entry level is too fast.

    Time to start promoting the sandbaggers.

    As he stated, it’s not just the top end that is too high, the bottom end is too high. When i’ve done XC Racing in the past i was arguably quicker/fitter than i am now… but i struggled to get out of the last 10 riders out of 50. With that i ended up having mostly quite a lonely race, so was it really a race ? Well, i got a finishing position so it was a race.. but i mostly rode alone after the first 4-5 mins as i had a few riders behind me, but the riders in front had pulled away and gapped me.
    I class myself as half reasonably fit at the moment, but i bet if i went to the next Gorrick and entered anything other than Fun, i’d end up in the bottom couple.

    XC racing seems more like CX racing to me in some ways, all fully Lycra’d up with short travel lightweigh carbon bikes… It wasn’t what i expected at all… I expected baggies and run what you brung type stuff, but i got Nino Schurter and his mates.

    DT78
    Free Member

    I accidently entered a sport as I thought I was better than ‘average’ aka faster than everyone I meet at trail centres. I came last by a looooonnnng way. I had guys passing me on the fire roads in tt position when I was clocking 20mph…. It was pretty demoralising tbh. I prefer the open class events like the gorrick 4hr where you’ll never win but it is a great challenge.

    Problem for me is entry is now £20+ races are generally lunch time plus travel time means a day away from the family. These days I’d rather get up super early get to cwmcarn and be back for teatime. I can use strava to race myself and my mates.

    I really liked the idea of the fox hunt enduro. You could do that with xc. Start the pack off 30mins ahead of the elite rides who all have bells. See if you can stay ahead of them, plus make them work for it, no ‘elite rider coming through politeness’

    Tiger6791
    Full Member

    Having raced a couple of Southern XC races here’s an observation.

    There are some seriously fast people out there! It’s quite off putting somehow and unless your serious your never going to do well

    People who should race Sport at least seem to enter in Open so they can compete

    Nobody enters beginner so Open is a vast range.

    It’s not very social, it’s very serious….

    I’ve enjoyed the challenge but I never feel like I have to go to the next one.. So end up only doing a couple if I have a spare afternoon and it’s near enough.

    ghostlymachine
    Free Member

    XC racing seems more like CX racing to me in some ways, all fully Lycra’d up with short travel lightweigh carbon bikes… It wasn’t what i expected at all… I expected baggies and run what you brung type stuff, but i got Nino Schurter and his mates.

    XC racing has been like that as long as i’ve been doing it (started in Belgium/France in 90 or 91). By the early/mid 90’s anyone “serious” was basically using road clothing (and a road position, but lets not go there 😉 ).

    Even then the fast guys were fast in every class.

    njee20
    Free Member

    People say ‘courses are too easy’, so they make them more technical, then people who actually make up the numbers (fun and open riders) don’t race because it’s too hard.

    I accept that World Cup courses are getting tougher, but I don’t enjoy it. I’ve not done any XCO this year. First time since 1999 when I was 13. Bought a licence, just didn’t fancy it. I did 4 or so races last year, came in the last 25% in all of them.

    Gorricks are always well attended, they’re not tough courses, and they appeal to the average riders. The expert class has always been tiny

    thestabiliser
    Free Member

    Theres NOTHING round here, youd have to travel 2-3 hours and this is the Lakes. Used to race a few 24s 12 and did alright but travelling miles to get my arse handed to me doesnt appeal. Thinking about setting up some offroad TTs using strava with a couple of local road clubs. Keep it accessible and fun and people will give it a punt.

    dragon
    Free Member

    For some reason the media in the UK gave up on XC about 15 years ago and that’s it. It’s a very different story on the continent where it still seems popular.

    Also I do second the point about sandbaggers, the BC have never got a grip on that. When you’ve got 2nd Cat road riders racing Sport, then your average weekend warrior mtber is going to have a grim time.

    mrlebowski
    Free Member

    XC racing seems more like CX racing to me in some ways, all fully Lycra’d up with short travel lightweigh carbon bikes… It wasn’t what i expected at all… I expected baggies and run what you brung type stuff, but i got Nino Schurter and his mates.

    Been that way for a LONG time, though I agree it should be less of this:

    Also I do second the point about sandbaggers, the BC have never got a grip on that. When you’ve got 2nd Cat road riders racing Sport, then your average weekend warrior mtber is going to have a grim time.

    👿 👿 👿

    t’s not very social, it’s very serious….

    Yep, trying to get a laugh out of some of the folks at these events is like trying got get blood out of a stone…..lighten up FFS..

    globalti
    Free Member

    More mountain bikers are road riding to train.

    fifeandy
    Free Member

    So yeah, coming back to the thread an hour later and most people’s experiences seem to be saying the same thing.

    A) Need to be getting the properly fast guys (the ones who are basically doing elite lap times) out of sport cat as a priority. This then free’s up sport cat for ‘normal’ fit riders.

    B) Need probably two lower categories to be populated by weekend warrior types and beginners.

    C) Need some sort of advertising campaign in combination with the above to draw people to come and give it a try.

    Edit To be fair to the ‘sandbaggers’, in some areas of the country, its sufficiently hard to get to races and they are so few and far between that no matter how fit you are scoring enough points to be promoted may not be guaranteed. System is flawed as much as riders taking advantage of it

    ghostlymachine
    Free Member

    Maybe it’s just you (And tiger6791). I’ve always had a bit of a laugh and a joke at XC events.

    And i’m even a roadie1!!!!1!!!!!

    njee20
    Free Member

    Need probably two lower categories to be populated by weekend warrior types and beginners.

    Dunno about Scotchland, but we have Beginner/Fun/Open/Sport/Expert/Elite. Gorrick races have a combined expert/elite, southern and nationals don’t have beginner, but there are plenty of categories. Few sport riders are literally doing the same times as the elites even if they are their races are half the distance.

    I’ve never found it overly serious though, definitely have a laugh. Even the top guys are pretty chilled.

    fifeandy
    Free Member

    Beginner/Fun/Open/Sport/Expert/Elite

    That would be perfect.

    We have Novice/Sport/Expert/Elite, however the Novice race is only 2 laps, so ~40mins tops for anyone even moderately fit, and the ‘Sport’ race is a second Expert race but 1 lap less.

    So yeah, given the 3 options of:
    drive 3hrs for a 40min event in a field of 3 riders.
    drive 3hrs to get dropped in the first 3 mins of a 90 min event
    stay home and do something fun

    guess which most folk choose?!

    I think the size of the field at selkirk marathon, GT7 and 10UTB says there is plenty of appetite for XC type riding, but a key part of any sport is to feel like you are competing against someone at a similar level.

    ghostlymachine
    Free Member

    😀 Last time i raced seriously in the uk it was sport/expert/elite. So you’ve gained two category.

    (BC gave me a 2nd/sport licence back then, despite me having held either a Belgian, Dutch or French elite licence of some description for best part of the previous 15 years. It was an improvement on the 3rd/sport licence they originally sent me.)

    colournoise
    Full Member

    Only done one ‘proper’ XC race – part of the FNSS earlier this year – so some beginner opinions…

    Numbers seemed pretty good across all the categories. I think the FNSS is one that maintains its popularity though.

    The race I did had age categories at my end of the field so I wasn’t doomed to plumb last from the off.

    Personally for me, the 1 hour plus 1 lap seemed too short. By the time I’d settled in to a rhythm and was catching the odd rider again it was all over. Appreciate this is more me than the event though.

    Clearly a lot of the riders were road training or were predominately road riders. The course was very non-technical but there was one twisty, tight wooded section. I was getting left for dead on the open flat bits but was getting held up every lap on the but that required some actual riding skills (and I’m decidedly average).

    Lots of steep, light, plastic bikes at the pointy end but quite a few run wot you brung riders at my end of things. I think I was the only one on a 31lb 160mm enduro tank though.

    I suffered, but I actually quite enjoyed it. Would have done more this year if dates had worked out. Will definitely try to do 3 or 4 rounds next year. Might even take a suitable bike and do some training…

    If I were to design an XC event for riders like me, it would be…

    At least a couple of hours long.
    A proper mix of technical and ‘speed’ trails (might even be cool to have one or two separately timed technical sections – like a mini enduro within the XC event).
    I guess what I’m imagining is a kind of XC/Enduro hybrid in terms of the style of riding and bike required. The quick guys around still be quick, but it might be a slight leveler further down the field?

    GavinB
    Full Member

    I’m interested to read the comments above, as I was worried I’d come away from my first real experience of XCO with an unfairly bad opinion.

    (Minor bit of background: I’ve raced 12/24 hr stuff solo, pairs and teams for years, as well as doing loads of enduro stuff and made the numbers up in Vets cat in the SDA DH series for four years or so. I’m now coaching kids at a local club, so was keen to see about getting more of them into XC racing)

    Maybe I was unlucky, but the round I raced (in Scotland) was a long drive, a fair expense, but ultimately a lonely ride around some muddy woods for an hour or so. There was nobody out spectating around the course, so zero atmosphere, and zero banter on the start line, or even when riding with someone else.

    By comparison, I’ve done two CX races for the very first time this year, and really, really enjoyed it. Great atmosphere, very friendly and actually felt like I was ‘racing’ against my peers, rather than just getting my arse handed to me on a plate.

    qwerty
    Free Member

    I don’t race, I doorstep ride, I watch a little of the UCI XCO on TV if I remember to. I flagged up a potential XCO / UK team article for STW to Chipps a while back as a friend’s involved and I think it has a real grass roots from nothing to the Olympics story about it, here’s his reply:

    Thanks for the pitch…

    It is a good story – though in terms of general interest in XCO, I reckon that it’s still very far from most people’s minds. The OMX Team has fewer than 2000 followers on Twitter, despite having a national champion on its team and its video of the National Champs has 60 or so views at the moment – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LAdaIfvMIs

    So, I think that in terms of general mountain biking, there really isn’t currently that much interest in XC racing… It would be good to feature it some time though – although at the moment, the time’s not right as everyone’s off to the Olympics so it might have to wait until the Autumn. I do have an in-depth feature on British Cycling (and its lack, or not, of interest in mountain biking…) planned for the autumn, so it might work along with, or as part of, that…

    Sorry I missed Hadleigh, it sounded a good weekend. I was on holiday instead…

    Cheers
    Chipps

    I understand his reply, but I feel it shows the mags current direction. Shame as I always thought of them as championing the underdog & uninfluenced too much by the mainstream in a Dirt Rag kind of way. Chipps, if I bump into you I may bend your ear a little more on the subject 😉

    notmyrealname
    Free Member

    Also I do second the point about sandbaggers, the BC have never got a grip on that. When you’ve got 2nd Cat road riders racing Sport, then your average weekend warrior mtber is going to have a grim time.

    This is a huge barrier to entry for some people.
    A couple of mates of mine fancied trying some XC races but were put off by seeing the speed of some people who entered the open and even beginners categories.
    One race local to me has, for the past couple of years, had people entering the beginners/fun category who’ve been racing in sport or expert during the season in the National XC series which doesn’t look good to any beginners. Similarly the Southern XC has, for the past couple of seasons, had people riding open who have dropped down from Vet’s, Sport and Expert categories often with the excuse of “not having ridden much lately” then they go on to put a minute a lap into the rest of the field.
    It puts off new riders who believe they will only come DFL and also puts off current riders who realise that there’s no point in racing the season as they’ll never compete against the sandbaggers.

    Having looked at the results for the Banjo Rampage series, it did look to be an exceptionally poor showing this year. I did notice that Banjo have also pulled the plug on their night race series which used to be fairly poplar from what I remember.
    It’s a shame that the number of events is dropping but I can’t see how it’s viable to continue with the events when entry numbers are so low.

    Nobeerinthefridge
    Free Member

    I’m not a competitive type, so have never really considered XC racing, but what Andy says above put me off right away. 3-4 Hours in the car for 90 minutes of riding.

    Feel the same about CX, though I did enter a couple of CX races way back…

    Enduro gets knocked by some, rightly or wrongly, I care not a jot, but I can ride (and talk shite/procrastinate/etc) with my mates for 5 hours, have a right load of fun, but still get a wee focus on and ‘race’ for a bit too.

    I think that format suits most people who don’t either have the time, inclination or motivation to train properly.

    Hob-Nob
    Free Member

    Clearly a lot of the riders were road training or were predominately road riders. The course was very non-technical but there was one twisty, tight wooded section. I was getting left for dead on the open flat bits but was getting held up every lap on the but that required some actual riding skills (and I’m decidedly average).

    In my limited experience of XC racing, this was the case for me too.

    I fancied giving it a whiz one winter, because I thought it might be better than the turbo when training a bit for DH & Enduro.

    Firstly, I was wrong. My opinion was tainted though, I did 2 & had 2 mechanicals. Largely regardless though, the loop was tame, with probably 2/3 of it being fire road & the rest being dull singletrack.

    I’ve never bothered, nor plan to since. Dull.

    bennyboy1
    Free Member

    I raced the Southern Series in 2014, was chuffed to finish 5th overall in the category and got to know a bunch of really nice chaps whilst doing it. I have to say that bar one or two overly serious lads the atmosphere was relaxed and I felt there’s abit of a community.

    I will say that the chaps who finished around my series position probably should have moved up a category but 2 seasons on they’re still racing the same. It comes down down to personal choice I suppose and theres a nice feel of a group of mates wznting to race each other but for the pure accesibility of the sport and for giving others a chance they probably should move up a category by now – the same names were in the mix for the 2016 series.

    I didn’t race xc in 2015 as I was doing a charity annual mileage challenge and the racing weekends didn’t fit with this. I raced one Southern XC this year, crashed into a tree and creaked to the finishline in 9th with only one arm properly working. Have spent the rezt of the year just out enjoying my riding 3-5 times a week.

    In my mind there is a big current shift over to CX racing. This might be to the detriment to XC racing in the short term as I recognise a whole host of XC names in the Central CX and Wessex CX leagues. However, people like new challenges and I’m sure a good proportion of riders will return back to XC in a season or two or just end up doing both.

    ghostlymachine
    Free Member

    Not to be rude, but i suspect that was because you were in with the “less able” riders at the back/middle of the field. The fastest riders (both on the flat open bits and the techy bits, and the climbs, and the decents) will mostly be really really fast. On everything.

    njee20
    Free Member

    One race local to me has, for the past couple of years, had people entering the beginners/fun category who’ve been racing in sport or expert during the season in the National XC series which doesn’t look good to any beginners.

    Who, out of interest? I can’t imagine anyone with an expert licence racing fun. Speaking as someone with an expert licence.

    ghostlymachine
    Free Member

    probably should have moved up a category

    That’s BC look out. The current category promotion rules are terrible. They were 15 years ago. I don’t think they’ve changed much.

    colournoise
    Full Member

    ghostlymachine – Member
    colournoise » I was getting left for dead on the open flat bits but was getting held up every lap on the but that required some actual riding skills (and I’m decidedly average).
    Not to be rude, but i suspect that was because you were in with the “less able” riders at the back/middle of the field. The fastest riders (both on the flat open bits and the techy bits, and the climbs, and the decents) will mostly be really really fast. On everything.

    Absolutely (the KoMs round our local woods are pretty much all held by racing snakes regardless of tech or not), but still illustrates for me the ability gap between someone who clearly rides mostly road and isn’t that confident on the dirt, at whatever level, and riders like myself who ride pretty much exclusively MTB.

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