Short question: would you enter salary discussions with your direct line manager?

Context:
I’m contracting for a company I used to work for as staff 4 years ago. I work in a team of 7. I used to be a line manager here before I left to go contracting and I never knew anyone’s salary expectations. This company now wants me to come back as full time staff and my line manager has in an email asked my minimum salary expectation. I feel uncomfortable giving her a number. Firstly, I am pretty sure there is a big variance between what they pay the other 6 staff members – and my expectation will be above any of their salary. Secondly, I’d not be surprised if my expectation is above what the line manager gets paid.

It’s a big company (40,000 people) so I believe I should be talking to HR about this, not the line manager. Thoughts and experience please?

Yes, I would, absolutely, but then they already know it. Never worked anywhere where your line manager wouldn’t know your salary, that seems very odd.

I’ve never had a pay review instigated by HR.

Speak to her – can’t hurt. I push my line manager to force HR & pay structure owners’ hand at least twice a year. Nobody knows your value to the business better than your line manager. And the fact colleagues can’t negotiate a better deal for themselves is not your concern.

Say to her “here’s what I bring in terms of value, this is what you pay me as a contractor, if you want me as a permie and to secure my services forever, this is what I am worth”

Who else are you going to talk to about it? HR just do as they’re told, at the end of the day.

Yep. Manager first, in every place I’ve worked.

njee20 – Member

Yes, I would, absolutely, but then they already know it. Never worked anywhere where your line manager wouldn’t know your salary, that seems very odd.

I’ve never had a pay review instigated by HR.

Ditto this.

Big(ger) company, approx 80,000 people.

Never worked anywhere where your line manager wouldn’t know your salary, that seems very odd.

I’ve never had a pay review instigated by HR.

+1. If I were to get a salary review it’d be through my boss. How would HR know whether you’re any good at your job or not?

Also, here at least HR have nothing to do with wages, that would be Payroll.

First contract I had, they eventually wanted me to go permie and asked about salary. I started with what I’d need to get the equivalent take home, and there was no chance as it was way above the grade I’d be on. Was open to some flexibility understanding I couldn’t necessarily get the same take home. The highest they could go to though was far lower than my previous permanent salary was as a senior software engineer some five years before. All they could do was try to boost it with offers like training and bonuses (that I know weren’t forthcoming as they were related to project and company performance which was always never as good as it should be).

I stayed with contracting and moved on to next contract. They were shoving people out the door a year or so later anyway and then went bust, so permanent would have been no more secure and a lot less money.

Anyway, the discussion was with HR. Managers didn’t really want to discuss salaries. However they were fully aware of what everyone was on, the rate I was on as contractor, and I’d informally mentioned what I’d likely expect as a permie and they had no problem.

Crazy thing is the department boss was anti contractor, moaning about the cost, but I kept pointing out the cost to them to get me as a permie would work out way more with the overheads.

Hmmm. Interesting. Not the set of responses I was expecting.

In this company (and previous), salaries were controlled by HR. They benchmark against other companies and ensure overall company payroll is effectively managed. The logic (I assume) is to ensure the company doesn’t have individual teams overpaying employees due to generous line managers agreeing salaries with their teams. The only influence of line managers was for performance reviews to ensure employees were comparitavely rewarded compared to their peers.

But I take on board the initial responses.

I’d would and ask for a good 10 – 15% above what I’d accept for a bit of negotiating headroom. Don’t be too bothered about your asking salary being above other team members…that’s not your problem and not unusual in a large organisation that there is a large spread of salaries at a given level. When I’ve recruited externals I usually expect an asking salary significantly more than the typical salary at the grade. We’re not a bad payer, in fact very good for the area, but if you’ve got people coming from the south then they have unrealistic expectations for more northern salary levels and need a bit of re-alignment of their expectations.

Now is the time to negotiate hard, you won’t get the opportunity again once you’re employed.

I would only approach my manager on it.

I have a team of 22 direct reports & I know everyone’s salary. (Well, I have a spreadsheet with it on!)

I’d not be surprised if my expectation is above what the line manager gets paid.

I’m not seeing the problem with this. Your salary reflects your job and skills, not your importance. If you were a bottom-rung line manager looking after a team of experienced senior engineers with qualifications coming out of their ears, would you expect a higher salary than them because you were their boss?

I am a line manager and I set the salary for my team. If they went elsewhere to discuss before talking to me first I would be disappointed that they felt that they couldn’t talk to me about it.

Are you sure about that? HR will control pay bands for grades, but Line Managers heavily influence where employees sit in those bands. HR haven’t got any idea what you’re worth without your Manager telling them.

The only influence of line managers was for performance reviews to ensure employees were comparitavely rewarded compared to their peers.

Which surely includes financial compensation?

Are you sure you haven’t been getting fleeced by old managers not wanting to give you a raise? 😉

In this company (and previous), salaries were controlled by HR

It may be that they do the controlling. But your negotiation is with your line manager. It is up to them to negotiate with HR or whoever sets the staffing budget.

and yeah, salaries can be all over the place for the same skills and experience. Just comes down to what people ask for or what they were previously on and whether the company is prepared to pay it, but the fact others are on less or more for the same role often doesn’t matter to them. I used to be on less than others in a number of companies because I started out low, not realising how much I should have asked for. Each subsequent company bumped it a fair bit, but it was still a fair bit lower than others in the same role.

Should say however, I’ve been mainly in companies that aren’t grade based. If you’re given a particular grade, I’d expect similar pay to others on that grade.

What industry, OP? I’m really surprised that’s the case.

The only exception I can see would be for real ‘entry level’ jobs – ie I’d not expect your “call centre team leader” to necessarily know what all ‘their’ staff were being paid, but I’m assuming that’s not the case here.

I still don’t understand how any discussion with HR can be anything other than benchmarking against other employees, which isn’t helpful, you want paying based on your skills, not whatever they’ve got away with paying everyone else. That’s a sure fire way to ensure you underpay everyone!

he logic (I assume) is to ensure the company doesn’t have individual teams overpaying employees due to generous line managers agreeing salaries with their teams.

Managers don’t generally have a blank chequebook. They’ll either have a budget or will have to justify salary decisions to those higher up the food chain (or more likely, both).

I recently raised a salary increase request for one of my apprentices. This was a legal requirement, the minimum wage goes up as you get older. This went initially to my line manager, but the final sign-off was on the CEO’s desk. The pay rise was for an extra 5p/hour.

We now have industry-benchmarked role bands, available to all. Everyone knows roughly what everyone else is paid, by job title. Managers set what their teams are paid within the bands and are responsible for requesting any budgets for changes or new recruits.

It’s a bit exposing and massively transparent but has certainly ended Chinese whispers!

Many years ago, when working for the local council, I set up my email signature as Name, phone, job title, grade, salary. People stopped taking the piss and asking me to do the managers’ job for them.

It’s oil & gas – but not sure that should make a difference.

How about this…. I expect to be paid the same as what I left on 4 years ago. I could just tell her this, without quoting a number. But possibly this could come across as obtuse – she’ll find out what that number is if HR will tell her (although they wouldn’t have told me when I had her job).

I still don’t understand how any discussion with HR can be anything other than benchmarking against other employees, which isn’t helpful

The only parallel I can think of is that job X commands salary Y. Eg, in local government you have salary banding, so a Band F job might be £18-£20k (I’ve just made those numbers up). A job position has a band attached, so all the people doing the same job are in the same band and thus on broadly similar wages.

At that level then, HR could quite easily say “ah yes, it’s an administrator role, we pay our administrators £20k” or whatever, and it’s a fair system. Where it falls down is when you’re hiring more specialised staff which don’t fit nicely into little boxes.

How about this…. I expect to be paid the same as what I left on 4 years ago. I could just tell her this, without quoting a number. But possibly this could come across as obtuse – she’ll find out what that number is if HR will tell her (although they wouldn’t have told me when I had her job).

Are you sure you even want to go back? Why make her go to HR? just tell her the number. You’re also making an arse of it for yourself as a) you’re coming across badly, and b) you’d want at the very least that number + cost of living increases

In my experience HR are the last people you’d want to have a salary negotiation with.

They (typically) know nothing of the skills involved and only look at roles as a set of words on a page with a salary range next to it.

My manager, however, is part of the industry and knows exactly what certain services are worth.

Firstly, I am pretty sure there is a big variance between what they pay the other 6 staff members – and my expectation will be above any of their salary. Secondly, I’d not be surprised if my expectation is above what the line manager gets paid.

If you’re worth it and in budget, they’ll pay it. How are they supposed to make a decision if you won’t tell them what you want?

It’s oil & gas – but not sure that should make a difference.

Only curious because it seems mental.

The only parallel I can think of is that job X commands salary Y. Eg, in local government you have salary banding, so a Band F job might be £18-£20k (I’ve just made those numbers up). A job position has a band attached, so all the people doing the same job are in the same band and thus on broadly similar wages.

Yep, that makes sense, although I’d still expect to know what my staff were being paid within those bands, they can be quite broad after all.

How about this…. I expect to be paid the same as what I left on 4 years ago. I could just tell her this, without quoting a number. But possibly this could come across as obtuse – she’ll find out what that number is if HR will tell her (although they wouldn’t have told me when I had her job).

Why on earth would you go to work for them for the amount you earned 4 years ago? And would HR honestly not tell her?

I’d not take a job with them.

A neutral answer would be “as a contractor, the normal figure for considering a return to employment is current day rate x *240 as an annual salary”

*Use whatever made-up number you want as a factor.

I’d discuss my salary with anyone who had the power to increase it.

IME HR aren’t those people, but managers are.

Our salary reviews are centrally controlled however my line manager still knows my salary (I used to know my team’s in order to approve O/T but I’m actually more a team leader so don’t anymore).

About a year ago I was approached by a contractor to see if he could switch to a permanent role (we were trying to ditch all the contractors at the time anyway), we ended up employing him on a higher salary than I’m on (I was party to the salary discussions as my line manager wanted my input) but although odd/annoying in some ways it’s also just a reflection of the market rate (and businesses can’t be competitive and pay everyone the current market rate, unless employees also accept salary cuts if the market rate falls).

So I can’t really see why you’re uncomfortable giving your prospective line manager your salary expectations – she will either know or be able to find out if it’s within the salary band for the role. If not then either you’d automatically get rejected or they’d have to make an exception and jump through various hoops with HR (if it’s anything like where I work).

I expect to be paid the same as what I left on 4 years ago. I could just tell her this, without quoting a number. But possibly this could come across as obtuse

I’d view it as you being being awkward for the sake of it, TBH. Why not just tell her, anyway? What’s the big secret?

Also, do you really want your salary from four years ago?

Oil & Gas probably does make a difference because there are so many contractors on some astonishing rates, so telling your LM what you are expecting wont shock them that much.

anyway, if they dont meet it you can just carry on as you are?

It’s oil & gas – but not sure that should make a difference.

How about this…. I expect to be paid the same as what I left on 4 years ago. I could just tell her this, without quoting a number.

Well salaries haven’t gone up in oil and gas in the last 4 years (not where I work anyway) so that would likely be a fair number assuming that it’s the same job with the same level of responsibilities. But make sure you tell her the number.

edit.

Oil & Gas probably does make a difference because there are so many contractors on some astonishing rates,

I make far more as staff (overall remuneration not just salary) than I did contracting.

I’ll tell her my expectation- universal agreement on here has cleared my mind.

As for why I’m willing to go back for what I left on…. oil & gas is not what it was 4 years ago. My contract rate has dropped more than 20% over that time. At the same time there is mass redundancies of staff and contractors. I have personally only just returned to work after 6 months of nothing.

Double edit.

Oh bugger it. Post abandoned….

STOP PRESS!

Line manager just emailed to say she has been told that “salary will be in line with the pay scale”.

Looks like HR have stepped in.

Ahh it’s oil and gas…….

Frankly if you’re offered half what you were on 4 years ago you’re doing well.

Existing staff earn what they earn, they’re neither competition or a benchmark (they may well not have had a rise in those 4 years as the company views everyone as overpaid in the current market). You’re competing with the 10,000’s of us currently twiddling our thumbs.

TINAS – O&G Process Engineer currently earning about 1/3 his salary 4 years ago (and less than a quarter what it was 6 years ago).

Should probably dust off my CV.

fanatic278 – Member

STOP PRESS!

Line manager just emailed to say she has been told that “salary will be in line with the pay scale”.

Looks like HR have stepped in.

That pay scale isn’t just 1 number, you should still be stating your expectations to the manager who will work with HR on your behalf.

If I have this right then they have approached you to go permanent so, I’d be looking to find out what market rate was for that position and if that was suitable I’d ask for just that, market rate.
If they came in below the figure I’d have a conversation about the discrepancy between what they believe to be market rate and your understanding of it plus the impact of both figures to your current income, if we couldn’t get to agreeable terms then I’d remain contracting.

Out of interest, who’s hiring staff at the moment?

Tto be fair to the company, they pay well above market rate. I already know what they think the ‘pay scale’ is for my job, and it’s 10% short of what I left on.

My desire to earn what I left on seems unlikely.