I travel semi-regularly for work (once a month ish) it seems that I have been volunteered to help a customer in Saudi Arabia for a few days. My instinct is to not be over the moon about this but I don’t know if I am being unreasonable and the travel advice makes a visit sound worse than the reality of being there for a few days. Travel and work would be in Riyadh if this influences anything. Does anyone have any experience or advice with travel/ work in Saudi Arabia? Definite no-no or perfectly fine?

What’s the worst that could happen? You get kidnapped by a bunch of Sunni fundamentalists and appear in your own video?

Few days maybe…
Any more and no, the way of life and the treatment of the non elite combined with the complete oppression of women is a bit off putting.

I wouldn’t be too worried, loads of expat types out there working for Aramco.

that said threat level has been raised.

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/saudi-arabia

If the area you are travelling in is deemed unstable (Riyadh isn’t), then it would be good to have a security detail with you, this is quite common in very high risk areas.

Ask for danger money.

Couple of days would be fine but I’d expect to be well looked after. i.e. picked up from the airport, local fixer, good hotels etc

The more I read, the less I like the idea and there is certainly a lot in the normal way of life that doesn’t sit well. I’ve no idea what the arrangements would be but there is certainly no financial incentive unlike some other industries. I half wonder if I am being ignorant to other cultures and worrying over nothing but I can’t say it seems like a great trip at the moment 😕

I didn’t feel worried in Riyadh more than some places I travel too such as Jordan (where I’m today), Joburg, Detroit. Very odd place though. I’d never work there long term.

My old boss is out there just now on a 3 year contract(a lady, so living under different conditions than you would !)

Pluses:

Cash, lots of it, both as remuneration and to fund projects at work. Huge budget for the research centre she is running.
Nice living facilities provided, good relocation package that included the Cat ! And gym etc on the “campus” (compound)

Minuses:

Can’t drive (although a car and driver are provided)
Can’t really go anywhere unaccompanied
Can’t drink
Can’t go for a run in the hills or ride a bike anywhere etc

Oh yes and the strict hierarchy – Arabs/Arab women/Yanks/Euros/non-whites/all non-Arab women etc

I have to confess I am considering it – pay off the mortgage with once contract – might be worth the restricted lifestyle.

Hels

Is that girls cant go for a run in the hills or anyone (as in getting shot rather than too hot) ?

I am on a list to maybe go there beginning next year for a few months
Me + Hotel + no exercise = fatty McFat

As above, there are no financial gains over and above working anywhere else in the world (barely any more than working from home!). Not sure on the accommodation or travel arrangements but I am not convinced even the fanciest hotel outweighs the other negatives

Just go and exercise the usual discretion; certainly don’t go around with security as that will draw attention to you. Move discretely and irregularly and just get used to the idea that you won’t be outdoors much and will be pretty sedentary for a few days. A rest and some good food can be good for tired cycling muscles at this time of year!

For moral reasons no

For security reasons it would not put me off.

Girls can’t go for a run in the hills as in a) wearing immodest running kit and b) unaccompanied female person.

It’s juts a few days, go for it.

🙂

I felt nervous enough having breakfast in a hotel in East Jerusalem. Me, the tour guide, some blokes from our tour then I look up and there are suddenly 60 blokes in the room STARING at me, like they had never seen a woman in shorts. Sent my pal upstairs to my room to get a sarong before I could move anywhere. Very unpleasant, and that was probably low-level stuff.

@DanW I have been going there for business for 30 years including a few visits when security tensions have been very high. A good friend of mine was inside the compound attacked by suicide bombers and was sheltering under the stairs with his kids whilst someone was shooting holes in the wall. I have also heard Frank Gardner speak first hand about being shot in the back whilst at Riyad ATM.

Would I live/work there no. Would I go for a few days, yes.

It’s juts a few days, go for it.

Seconded

I was out there for a couple of weeks last year in Al Khobar. It’s pretty dull (there’s nothing to do other than Shopping Malls, as pretty much every other pastime is idolatory), the most dangerous thing about my time there was the journey to/from the office, the driving is insane!

Would I work there for any length of time/live there? Nope.

@hels – being a little tough here but what you did was very disrespectful in an area with many Arabs. On the beach in Tel Aviv no problem but not in Jerusalem.

Wow! I’m not cut out for that! The gist I’m getting is that it seems mostly ok but no-one would really extend the risk or wish to tolerate the culture more than a few days. Is that fair?

I’m in the “few days, yes. long term, no” camp.

I did consider moving to the ME for work, but quickly crossed off SA. Then the Lehman crash occurred in 2008 and everywhere (incl UAE) shut up shop.

Maybe just me but I find it a bit hypercritical that you are willing to work for a company and be paid from their profits that they make dealing with customers with cultures you don’t like but unwilling to deal with them yourself face to face.

I looked into Saudi last year. Offer came through a JV partner I’d just finished some work with.

Pay was excellent (all living costs/flights home/schooling etc..plus an extra £225k per year tax free in the bank).

I was pretty close to saying yes, but it was for one big job, rather than a fixed term and I thought they were underestimating the length of time needed (they said 3 years and I reckoned about 5). My main concern was around being able to leave if the project went south or was significantly delayed…and for that reason I decided to forget all about it.

For a few days though, why not!? 🙂

@DanW – I know people who have lived and worked there for quite extended periods. Go for a few days and make up your own mind.

I worked there in the 80s (on the Gulf coast). It was OK but tedious. I wouldn’t go long term in the current climate but a few days in Riyadh should be OK. If you go, visit the Gold Souk. It’s amazing.

jambalaya – don’t worry, I didn’t make that mistake again, but thought I was pretty safe inside a Hotel ! Walk 200 metres and all westernised again. And I would argue that I was being disrespected frankly, but it is like arguing that if somebody doesn’t drown, that doesn’t make them a witch.

What nobody has mentioned is the fantastic hospitality you would enjoy from other expats, not necessarily from Saudis, who wouldn’t want you to see them getting boozed-up on Johnny Walker black, green and blue label.

(I once sat next to the Export Director of Johnny Walker on a plane and he confirmed my suspicion that Saudi is actually JW’s biggest export market.)

Maybe just me but I find it a bit hypercritical that you are willing to work for a company and be paid from their profits that they make dealing with customers with cultures you don’t like but unwilling to deal with them yourself face to face.

I am not especially willing to travel and am concerned for the security risk and have no real experience of the culture hence asking for some advice about the realities. I believe this is the first customer (small, low value specialist medical equipment) in the Middle East, most are located in Europe and North America with a few outliers dotted elsewhere. I think it came about when an existing customer moved to SA although I can completely understand the point of view.

I did a 3 week trip there a few years ago (Yanbu) on a petro/chem plant.
Managed to get arrested 🙄 (wrong ID and a long story)which was a bit scary.
The main thing for me ,was that it had a very different feel to the UAE ( which I had worked around a fair bit).
Few days should be fine,but I wouldn’t rush back for a visit,and not because of the getting pulled thing,that was just bad luck.

If it’s for a few days, you’ll be lucky to see any more than the airport, hotel and place of work – same as any Euro trip. Anything else is a bonus, I’d be straight in the flight.

Junkyard – lazarus
For moral reasons no

That’s the sort of issue that gets address when you start working for the company, not when you suddenly have to meet the actual customer

Hels, all these Arab men staring at you wearing shorts, were they wearing ‘traditional’ dresses?

I thought about applying for a job in Saudi recently. I asked myself “how big a shock would there have to be in order for the system to fracture and go to shit with some really terrible things to happen to people like me” and decided the answer was “not that big a shock”. The week after that, Saudi started bombing Yemen. I didn’t regret not applying. (BTW, I’ve been out there a bit and my old man lived there for ages, so it’s not like I based the decision on ignorant prejudice alone).

@hels – being a little tough here but what you did was very disrespectful in an area with many Arabs. On the beach in Tel Aviv no problem but not in Jerusalem.

Cobblers. There’s no such thing as disrespectful knees. I think it was the woman in this story who was disrespected.

Still, it could have been worse in another neighbourhood of Jerusalem, where some even more enthusiastic troglodytes hang out: http://www.smh.com.au/world/when-women-and-girls-are-the-enemy-20111120-1nn4d.html

No, they were wearing Western dress. I just think it was rude, plain and simple – I don’t stare at people in wandering the streets of Edinburgh wearing something I don’t like.

jambalaya – don’t worry, I didn’t make that mistake again

I see what you’re saying

They are building quite a security fence

I’d go for it, it would be interesting. It’s an opportunity to learn new things about a totally different culture first hand and that’s good in my book. If you do it once and don’t like it at all then don’t go again, but I would much rather learn through experience.

do it and pretend you are a spy for a few days.

just ignore the fact they are a bunch of inbred f-tards with stoneage values. personally I’d only want to visit in a long range bomber to drop something off.

Couple of days, yes, long term, no. You wouldn’t expect extra money for just a couple of days aside from nice hotel and food etc.

For longer assignments our place gives minimum 2.25x normal salary plus all travel, an apartment, a car, living allowance and regular trips home. Basically you don’t need to touch your salaried pay while you’re there, everything is covered. If you’re there long enough to make it tax free (a whole tax year, IIRC) that seems like a reasonable package but they still have trouble getting folk to do it.

You live in a walled, gated compound with the other ex-pats. There’s armed guards on the entrance. Every day you drive to the office and home again. You work six days a week because that’s the working week out there and you’ll do long days because there’s f-all else to do and most of the year it’s so insanely hot that you don’t want to go outside anyway.

Saudi clients are also utter, utter **** to work with. I say this from experience. Typically their idea of a discussion is to say “no” repeatedly until you give up. And then they refuse to pay you anyway. They will kick up a fuss about the tiniest thing not being done to the letter and refuse to pay you, then when it suits them, ask you to falsify documents or cover up their mistakes for them. Like when they use your DHL account to send their son’s university applications to the USA thinking nobody will notice and go apoplectic when the charges appear on your next invoice to them. They end up offering to send the cash to you personally to take it off the invoice. Yes, really.

And not SA, but a friend worked in the British Consulate in Oman for a few years, they had a steady stream of British businessmen coming to them for help when their Omani clients had fcuked them over. In theory there’s a legal system but as an ex-pat you’ll get nowhere with it. And they know it. Commission work, work gets done, refuse to pay for it. Commission another sucker, repeat.

So if you think you can hack it, and it’s for a defined goal (pay off the mortgage, buy a yacht, whatever, as long as there’s a clear exit) then maybe consider it. I wouldn’t though.

My Dad lives in Bahrain, has done for 10 years now, he’s not a massive fan of Arabic Politics, but he’s honest enough to say he’ll take their money at the rate they’re throwing it at him and Bahrain is, by middle eastern standards, quite forward thinking.

Wouldn’t go to Saudi though, he’s not usually one for xenophobia but he thinks they’re the worst kind of hypocrites and they adore “teaching people a lesson” which in reality is enjoying seeing people suffer and die for not following (or being a accused of not following) rules they routinely ignore themselves.

He’s sure one day the oil will run out, or we’ll stop caring about it, a single generation later they’ll run out of money, and the generation after that will be back to roaming the desert chopping each others heads off for sport, they’re a billion dollars away from savages, no more, no less.