The Pilot – Member

That’s the third time you’ve cracked that same ‘joke’ in one thread now, JimJam.

And I’ll probably crack it next week, and the week after that because it looks as though the irony of men talking about what women want seems lost on a lot of people.

molgrips – Member

The men of singletrackworld can always be relied upon to identify the struggles of women in western Europe at the hands of the privileged, white, misogynist patriarchy.

Not sure what this means jim.[/quote]

I was referencing the TDF podium girls thread which essentially ground to a halt when it became obvious that anyone who asked an actual woman for their opinion seemed to find out it wasn’t deeply offensive. To women.

People are individuals. There’s a spectrum of masculinity and femininity. As soon as someone on here comments that their daughter is naturally drawn to girly things, or their son to boyish things another poster will chime in that their daughter likes boyish things, as if this was proof of anything other than the personality of that one child.

There’s nothing wrong with encouraging boys and girls equally in sporting endeavors but for most competitive sports men are simply more suited. Not only have we more muscle mass, denser bones etc but we are more competitive and more aggressive due to testosterone. It’s been shown to actually change the brain when taken by female to male gender reassignments.

An exciting finish to a close race is great, but it has to be contextualized as part of a competition to find the best – that’s what sport ultimately is. Competition, winners and losers.

If you want true, ultimate equality in sport let’s just do away with male and female categories. Let everyone compete together and see who rises to the top, and the most exciting and the best sports will be popular regardless of gender. At the end of the day it’s a form of discrimination to not let Serena Williams compete against men; she feels as though she’s the best tennis player of all time and she’s being denied the opportunity to prove it.

Meanwhile I’m enjoying the irony of your next paragraph pointing out that anecdotes of individuals are representative of nothing more than the opinions of individuals…

An exciting finish to a close race is great, but it has to be contextualized as part of a competition to find the best – that’s what sport ultimately is. Competition, winners and losers.

So what you’re suggesting here is that if the blokes aren’t stuffing themselves full of all available drugs then there’s no point? I mean if they’re not doing that, then clearly they’re not the ultimate best.

If you want true, ultimate equality in sport let’s just do away with male and female categories. Let everyone compete together and see who rises to the top, and the most exciting and the best sports will be popular regardless of gender.

Why limit it to humans if you want the equality? You’re discriminating against my greyhound.

At the end of the day it’s a form of discrimination to not let Serena Williams compete against men; she feels as though she’s the best tennis player of all time and she’s being denied the opportunity to prove it.

cite

oh and my apologies for having an opinion on what women might want, despite knowing quite a lot of sporty women (some of whom would kick the arses of most people on here)

aracer

Meanwhile I’m enjoying the irony of your next paragraph pointing out that anecdotes of individuals are representative of nothing more than the opinions of individuals…

Don’t you think the opinions of a group of women are more likely to be an accurate representation of the opinions of women than the guesses of men?

*edit. I see that you don’t.

So what you’re suggesting here is that if the blokes aren’t stuffing themselves full of all available drugs then there’s no point? I mean if they’re not doing that, then clearly they’re not the ultimate best.

Strawman.

cite

Not her words but I assumed most people would get the reference, especially considering the thread title.

If the women still aren’t pushing themselves as hard as the men despite an environment where they are equal that might tell you something. Because as much as you might like to blame it all on society, there are fundamental differences

So do the Williams sisters not push themselves as hard as men? Does Jo Konta not?

What you are doing there is generalising. And also ignoring the fact that whilst there are high profile role models in tennis for women, sport overall is still under-represented massively. What if you’re a girl and you simply don’t like tennis? Or are no good at it? What if you’re stocky and powerful and would make a brilliant prop forward? You’ve only got the hard life of an amateur sports person to look forward to. My daughter is strong as hell and would be brilliant at rugby but even if she takes it up she can’t hope for stardom, recognition or even a salary out of it.

People are individuals. There’s a spectrum of masculinity and femininity. As soon as someone on here comments that their daughter is naturally drawn to girly things, or their son to boyish things another poster will chime in that their daughter likes boyish things, as if this was proof of anything other than the personality of that one child.

Yes. I’m arguing against generalisation – such as ‘women’s sport is crap’ and ‘girls aren’t competitive’ and so on. See above.

the irony of men talking about what women want seems lost on a lot of people.

Would it interest you to learn that I have spent a great deal of time talking to numerous women about this, and learning from them; and reading a good deal of material on the subject? Of course that’s no substutute for first hand experience, but at least I am listening and trying to understand the problem.

I don’t know what football clubs are like, but rugby and cricket clubs are very positive in my experience about the women’s and girls’ side of the club – indeed it is often cross-subsidized. All you see is people encouraging the girls to enjoy their sport and being given the opportunity to carry on upwards if they wish to – that is what is important – elite sport is helpful but there is no point getting hung up on it. Only very few should be encouraged to pursue it whether male or female.

The people who are negative about girls doing sport in my experience are other women.

All you see is people encouraging the girls to enjoy their sport

At the club yes. But when a girl joins the club you’ve already won most of the battle.

I was referencing the TDF podium girls thread which essentially ground to a halt when it became obvious that anyone who asked an actual woman for their opinion seemed to find out it wasn’t deeply offensive. To women.

That’s because women are taught that if they do object they will be labelled humourless, men-hating, lesbian, militant feminists who men will find impossible to even like, never mind contemplate forming any kind of relationship with. Not directly obviously but in so many ways by so much of society.

Really, with some notable exceptions (Molgrips in particular comes in for commendation), most people on this thread don’t seem to have two brain cells to rub together. Or perhaps it just suits them to keep pedalling the same old sexist, misogynistic nonsense.

most people on this thread don’t seem to have two brain cells to rub together

You tell ’em pilot!!

At the club yes. But when a girl joins the club you’ve already won most of the battle.

Not at all, the battle begins at 11 when you start losing them – no difficultly getting girls into sports at younger ages.

You tell ’em pilot!!

Lol! I don’t know if it was meant to or not but that made me laugh and perhaps means that now is a good time for me to step away from this thread 🙂

Really, with some notable exceptions (Molgrips in particular comes in for commendation), most people on this thread don’t seem to have two brain cells to rub together. Or perhaps it just suits them to keep pedalling the same old sexist, misogynistic nonsense.

I see your point, but……

I think the lower number of women in high level sport is due to men being noticeably stupider than women. There’s more men than women in prison and the armed forces, both of which have a commendable equal opportunities entrance exam.

To become great at anything takes a very long time doing it, only the truly stupid are willing to sacrifice that much of their life to stupid stuff like tennis.

David Beckham, despite being a thicket, was self aware enough to say, “I done it for ages, so it made sense to keep doing it” when he went to the US to continue playing soccer.

Scholarly, I’m sure you’ll agree.

Finding tennis of any gender a bit meh but have enjoyed some of the matches, I have got 2 of 3 girls playing u18 rugby and senior’ladies’ No doubt they would get hammered if playing men of same level/age. I have watched dozens of matches over last few years and the commitment and increasingly skill levels are up there with male peers. There seems to be a bigger issue with tv access to top women rugby/sport maybe a final score or highlights at midnight! a bit chicken and egg i spose one will lead to the other? .Any how we all love it and see it for what it is . Off to Twickenham end of august been nominated for ladies team of the year 😆 2nd yr consecutively £90 per ticket FFS including the team nice way to support grass root sport

😀 pilot – it has gone a bit off piste this one. Amusing thread though and shorter than the dog one!

I actually don’t see it as amusing. Having two daughters, I find much of this depressing.

I actually don’t see it as amusing. Having two daughters, I find much of this depressing.

Well it doesn’t depress me, I know with the requisite support from us that my daughter will have a greater opportunity to pursue sport than any previous generation. The likelihood is she won’t have the talent for elite sport but that is a cross many of us have to bear. I would be far more concerned if she was into superheroes.

I know with the requisite support from us that my daughter will have a greater opportunity to pursue sport than any previous generation

Greater, yes.

But if my daughter is the greatest rugby player of her generation, no-one will know who she is and she’ll have to juggle training with a job.

If she’s the greatest distance cyclist of her generation, she’ll be denied the chance to do a proper grand tour.

And so on.

I would be far more concerned if she was into superheroes.

Why?

Well said mefty and who want to be in/ have kids in elite sport given what you have to “put in” (?) to reach the top.

Mol, tbc, the amusing is ironic rather than “ha, has” due to the gargantuan leaps from the OP lack of enjoyment for ladies tennis to wha followed. If our kids gain for anything, it is/would be perspective….isnt that what experience isfor?

I’m not concerned if my daughter makes it to elite level or not – I just want her to have the chance to play sport at any level for enjoyment, without it being considered a joke, or men just watching for a glimpse of her knickers.

due to the gargantuan leaps from the OP lack of enjoyment for ladies tennis to wha followed

I brought it up because it’s relevant.

But if my daughter is the greatest rugby player of her generation, no-one will know who she is and she’ll have to juggle training with a job.

Maggie Alphonsi has a pretty high profile in Rugby and is used as an expert by TV for men’s games as well – See also Ebony Rainford-Brent for cricket.

If she’s the greatest distance cyclist of her generation, she’ll be denied the chance to do a proper grand tour.

Marianne Vos is a superstar in the Netherlands and has won sportswomen of the year three times. Although the Female Giro is shortened to 8 days now, still plenty of good one day races.

Why?

Because I think they are banal, but that is my own opinion and probably unpopular on here.

The plural of anecdote isn’t data. From what I remember of the podium girls thread, there was just one female poster who didn’t see a problem with it – so just in case I’d missed something I’ve just been and checked and found there was another female poster on the thread – and her opinion seemed to be that it was a negative thing, so I reckon you’re going to have to cite if you want to prove your point here…

Though more fundamentally your whole argument here appears to be an attempt to shut down the debate because we don’t agree with you, when as I already mentioned whilst I might not be female I have a lot of secondhand experience of women in sport (I suspect I know more sporty women than most contributing here).

Not her words but I assumed most people would get the reference, especially considering the thread title.

Given what you suggested appears to be completely made up, and totally contrary to anything Serena has ever said (most recently when this was brought up she specifically refused to engage), you’re going to have to explain yourself.

When Football Banned Woman, Channel 4, on now.
Might be of interest to some and might be beneficial for others to watch. Just a thought.

Full house at Lords for womens’ cricket this weekend – might be of interest for some and might be beneficial for others to watch. Just a thought.

Not sure how that is relevant, teamhurtmore?

It’s not too hard to see the relevance unless you are trying hard not to .

I must be trying really hard. Care to elaborate?

I must be trying really hard. Care to elaborate?

most people on this thread don’t seem to have two brain cells to rub together

I see you’re just trying to fit in…

Not at all. I’d be genuinely interested to hear your argument.
I just think it’s so sad that despite the popularity of one cricket match, sexism is clearly as alive and kicking today as it ever was.

sexism is clearly as alive and kicking today as it ever was.

amongst the neanderthal supporters of that cr8p game named football.

Whereas amongst the, very probably better educated, supporters of cricket it seems it isn’t alive.

where do tennis fans sit on your neanderthal <—–> educated scale?

(also pls help, I’ve got a degree and like football and cricket, both M&F versions…. and yesterday’s game was infinitely better as entertainment than watch England men’s semi final vs Pakistan. I don’t know where i fit in 😉 )

The implication is that I think football is a cr8p game, and that it has a number of neanderthal supporters, many of whom hold true the sexist attitudes we are talking about.

I think it a little more complicated than that, TurnerGuy

also pls help, I’ve got a degree and like football and cricket, both M&F versions…. and yesterday’s game was infinitely better as entertainment than watch England men’s semi final vs Pakistan. I don’t know where i fit in

But you described as a bit mleh?

Being a professional sportsperson means you are paid to play the sport. You are paid because other people want to watch you do that sport. The more people want to watch the more sponsors want to stick their logo on you and make the financial numbers work.

People want to watch professional sports people play sport because it is entertaining. Part of the entertainment comes from the ‘celebrity’ of the players and the significance of the competition. Part of it comes from the actual competitiveness of the match (the nip and tuck, is the outcome unknown, the drama etc). Most of the entertainment imo however comes from the quality of the competitors, the other worldliness and flamboyance and beauty of the way they execute their play. Watching someone doing something that appears almost impossible for a normal human to achieve. The perfect professional sport spectacle comes when all 3 of those factors are alive and kicking concurrently.

Sometimes female sport does not achieve the third of those three in my opinion. Or rather does not achieve it as frequently as the men’s equivalent. For me women’s cricket is one of those sports. Watching Joss Butler play a crazy ramp shot or Morgan flat bat the ball a quite frankly inconceivable distance does not have a female equivalent. Watching female cricket seems to be more for the purist – there are just not enough women playing with the physical power to create showcase moments at the same level to please the thrill seeking spectator. I’m glad they have a sell out for Lords but the match will have to be high on competitive drama for the crowd to come out buzzing at the end.

But you described as a bit mleh?

Sarcasm, intended to be directed straight at this thread hence the choice of words, apologies if that wasn’t apparent.

I thought it was a great game. Sport is entertainment first and foremost, and it was that even if it needed watching from behind the sofa.

For me women’s cricket is one of those sports. Watching Joss Butler play a crazy ramp shot or Morgan flat bat the ball a quite frankly inconceivable distance does not have a female equivalent.

Sarah Taylor’s legside stumping stood up to a medium pacer was INFINITELY more pleasing on the eye than watching a gym developed muscleman with a 3+ lb bat flay the ball to all parts.

Totally agree , she is a superb wicketkeeper . Had she been wicketkeeping for South Africa then they would have won by 20 or more runs .

Sarah Taylor’s legside stumping stood up to a medium pacer was INFINITELY more pleasing on the eye than watching a gym developed muscleman with a 3+ lb bat flay the ball to all parts.

You sir are therefore a purist 😉

Sarcasm, intended to be directed straight at this thread hence the choice of words, apologies if that wasn’t apparent.

Fair enough, didn’t pick it up.

Fran Wilson played a ramp and got out to one too.