With the recent weather, me’n’her have been doing plenty of snowy walks in the Peaks. Thinking about stepping it up a little and heading up to the Lakes to bag a proper winter mountain. Thinking about Helvellyn from the W side (have walked or ridden most of the Eastern stuff), or Skiddaw, Fairfield Round or Kentmere Round – the latter 2 I’ve done in non-winter conditions. Looking for about 5 hours on the hills, to give a bit of get out of jail factor, and baring in mind we’ll be travelling up and back from Sheff on the day.

Now, we’re reasonably well equipped, but we don’t have proper crampons or ice axes. (I have Microspikes, she has Yaktrax, which work admirably in the Peaks). Are we daft to consider the high Lakes in winter without them? Very much looking at walking routes, not scrambling or climbing. I’ve never seen people carrying or using crampons/axes around here, so I’ve no real feel for the point at which they become necessary.

Thanks!

I went up to grizdale tarn from dunmail raise two weeks ago. It was in full winter conditions, compacted snow, water ice and wind blow snow from 400m. I had katoola crampons and googles and carried an axe although didn’t need that! I was very glad of crampons and googles though!

Winter mountains are fun but can bite you! Lakes mountains are a step up from the peak in winter.

I’d recommend getting some winter walking skills either through an experienced friend, a guide or a weekend course. It’s well worth it.

Microspikes you’d probably be not too bad with, as long as you know what you’re doing and their limitations. Axe is a cert, you may not need to use it routinely but useful in hand – if you slip, you’ll not stop sliding and the paths are very compacted and icy, as well as neve on some slopes on the higher tops.

Depending how fit you are, I’d say Fairfield and Kentmere Horseshoes are probably best left as you’re looking at 5-6 hours minimum.

Useful planning tool here, felltop assessors go up every day to do a report…

+1 for proper crampons and ice axes plus the skills to use them for the Lakes in full winter conditions.

Micro crampons work well in the Peak, but in some Lakes conditions you’ll really appreciate having extra traction, steep descents on hard snow/ice for example when the shorter spikes on Kahtoolas and the like can get a little outfaced. Yaltrax, in particular, are decent on snow, ime, but not so clever on really hard ice at any sort of steepish angle.

It depends on conditions of course the terrain; on some days you can carry an axe or crampons all day and never need to use them, on others they’re essential

If you’re careful and you exercise good judgement you may never actually need crampons and axes for winter walking; crampons allow you to make progress on hard-packed snow and ice where once you’d have had to cut steps. Axes are therefore seldom needed for cutting steps but ought to be carried ready to self-arrest if you slip or trip on hard-packed snow above exposed ground. If you are walking in soft snow with no exposure you’ll be fine without either but you face the risk of bumbling onto icy terrain, which you have no alternative but to cross. My parents nearly died walking in the Lakes when a massive squall blew them off their feet and began to push them on sheet ice twoards an edge. It took them a few minutes to get axes out and crampons strapped on and the wind stopped as suddenly as it had started. The could at least have had their axes pushed down between their rucsacs and their backs ready to pull out in a hurry. So for winter mountain walking I’d say the axes are the minimum.

In adition to gear for making progress you need the usual survival gear, a minimum of extra clothing and a survival bag, spare gloves, head torch, map and compass (no batteries needed).

It’s been windy for days, mostly from the north so read up on how snow gets picked up then deposited on lee slopes where there may already be an icy layer. This forms unstable masses that can avalanche, even at low angles.
After the last few days of weather I would expect to find well-settled re-frozen snow in most places with deposits of unstable stuff on cornices and sheltered lee slopes.

So esentially, you’re all saying its a no go.

My boots will take walking crampons, hers won’t. I could justify buying microspikes for her, but there’s no way we can afford 2 sets of crampons, 2 axes AND a new set of boots for the 1 or 2 days a year we might use them.

Sort of agree about Fairfield Round – I think it took me a solid 5 hours when I last did it on my own in late spring, and I can move reasonably quickly.

Any recommendations for other routes that give a proper wild feeling, but don’t involve needing the gear?

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usual survival gear, minimum extra clothing and a survival bag, spare gloves, head torch, map and compass (no batteries needed).

This is all a given.

If you could cut across the A59 and meet me near Preston or Blackburn I’d be more than happy to lend you a couple of walking axes for the weekend. And crampons that might go on bendy boots, at a pinch. The problem will be pressure from the straps cutting off the blood supply and freezing her feet.

Edit: what about the Kentmere horseshoe? This is a cracking walk and has the merit of being very close to the M6. I walked it with my Mum in winter conditions when she was well over 65.

Do Skiddaw from Latrigg, sticking to the main path and you’ll be fine.
There was an avalanche on Blencathra a couple of days ago and some very compact snow/ice everywhere. Skiddaw is a safe bet and the views over the Solway Firth are amazing at the moment.

+1 for proper crampons and ice axes plus the skills to use them for the Lakes in full winter conditions.

Micro crampons work well in the Peak, but in some Lakes conditions you’ll really appreciate having extra traction, steep descents on hard snow/ice for example when the shorter spikes on Kahtoolas and the like can get a little outfaced. Yaltrax, in particular, are decent on snow, ime, but not so clever on really hard ice at any sort of steepish angle.

Lakes in winter

[url=https://flic.kr/p/bsxx6z]Liz on Striding Edge, Helvellyn[/url] by brf, on Flickr

[url=https://flic.kr/p/bsxhJR]Path up to Old Man of Coniston[/url] by brf, on Flickr

If you could cut across the A59 and meet me near Preston or Blackburn I’d be more than happy to lend you a couple of walking axes for the weekend. And crampons that might go on bendy boots, at a pinch. The problem will be pressure from the straps cutting off the blood supply and freezing her feet.

Or I’m in Ambleside and could lend you a couple of axes – 1x straight shaft 55cm mountaineering axe – might suit her for walking, depending how tall she is, 1x matching hammer (less useful…!) and a longer walking-specific axe, likewise, depends on your height. Also got walking crampons you could use, if you were both prepared for her to use your less capable Kahtoolas.

Email’s in profile…

brf – why walking with crampons on but no axe in hand to arrest?
Maybe me, but I was always taught you would ALWAYS have axe in hand with crampons on….

but there’s no way we can afford 2 sets of crampons, 2 axes AND a new set of boots for the 1 or 2 days a year we might use them.

Tiso outdoor shops in Scotland hire out winter kit (boots, axe & crampons)for a very reasonable £12.50 a day, perhaps there is something similar locally?

For those who’ve offered kit – thanks very much, but I’m not sure either of us are competent to be let loose with stuff like that, and I’d rather not be trying to learn how to use new stuff/get it to fit right/find it doesn’t whilst trying to crack out a route at the same time. Self arrest in particular strikes me as something that needs learning first before trying it for real.

The problem will be pressure from the straps cutting off the blood supply and freezing her feet.

<<shudders>> They’re cold enough already!!

Skiddaw could be a good concept. We’ll wait until Sunday (looking at going Monday) and make the call then, when the forecast is a bit more up to date.

brf – why walking with crampons on but no axe in hand to arrest?
Maybe me, but I was always taught you would ALWAYS have axe in hand with crampons on….

Personal judgement.

NB You mentioned this two years ago when I last posted that photo on STW!

Rydal horseshoe is quite a good low grade walk with no difficulties other than navigation if the weather comes in. I’d still recommend at least an axe each in the current conditions tho. If you chose based around the forecast you should be fine, probably best to try avoid a windy snowy whiteout on your first serious route.

I’d advise Kentmere, you turn right through Staveley before even reaching Windermere and can have a coffee at Wilf’s on your way through the village, if it’s open at that time. There are several bail-out routes if you reach a section of the horseshoe that you don’t fancy. It’s a good walk but not too demanding.

brf – why walking with crampons on but no axe in hand to arrest?
Maybe me, but I was always taught you would ALWAYS have axe in hand with crampons on…

How would you self-arrest with an axe on a rocky section? It’s sufficent to have it shoved down the back of your rucsac for quick access, as in the top picture.

I think he meant the other photo. Just looks like an iced up path to me, some people get over serious on here.

The problem will be pressure from the straps cutting off the blood supply and freezing her feet.

The modern, cradle-type designs sidestep this quite neatly – something like this:

Most of the load gets spread across quite a wide area.

You can get away with a flexible crampon on quite a few boots and even shoes that aren’t technically rated or recommended for crampons. Not for any remotely seriously climbing, but generally okay for occasional winter walking. I’m not saying that’s ideal, but it is often possible. YMMV etc.

@footflaps – 2 years ago? Blimey, one would have thought I was a grumpy and overly fixated chap… 😉

Likewise, if you want to head up the A65 via Skipton, I have a walking axe that you can have for nowt, as it doesn’t see any action these days and is mainly in place to swing at burglars and people who park across my drive.

You can hire crampons in the Lakes I think, although I would have thought careful route choice and your microspikes would be OK.

Just factor in that it will take you at least 50% longer to cover a set distance, even without the faff of putting them on and taking them off.

JonEdwards – Member

…I’m not sure either of us are competent to be let loose with stuff like that…

Get hold of the gear and give it a go on a modest route – you won’t be any worse off for having it, and you’ve got to start somewhere.

I’m sure there’s a couple of shops in Ambleside that hire crampons / boots / axes.

The risk is that if one doesn’t carry crampons, one might be tempted to carry on over slippery ground, rather than turning back (maybe after the half way point of the walk, and maybe after the highest point, which is never an easy/popular decision), whereas if one did have crampons, it would just mean that it was time to put them on. (Assuming a sensible route choice – e.g. a ‘walking’ route.)

I have a happy memory of walking on the Carngorm plateau in poor visibility early in 2000. We were walking on level ground on a thin layer of snow, which was quite secure. As I was strolling along behind my mates, I thought that it was really strange that I could see their reflections quite clearly in the snow, I marvelled at this for a few seconds before everyone went a bit Bambi – we’d gone from thin soft snow onto rock-hard white ice. Crampons on, there was no problem.

It’s sensible to have an axe, too, but you probably won’t need it. You can find a benign snow slope and have a go at self arrest (read up on what you’re supposed to do – in particular keeping your feet up) so that you start to gain some experience & you’ll have something to stop minor slides. I very much doubt that most people carrying axes could use them instinctively for self-arrest if caught unawares, anyway.

Whatever one does in winter, one must be prepared to turn back. Having crampons takes away one reason to do this.

On one occasion when I took a tumble (tripped myself with crampons snagged in gaiters while going donhill) and needed to right myself then arrest, I skinned the knuckles of the hand on the axe shaft badly because I wasn’t wearing gloves. Worth remembering.

Never mind that. Both photos seem to feature a large amount of nylon clothing…..

Never mind that. Both photos seem to feature a large amount of nylon clothing…..

Yep, my tweed jacket and plus fours were being dry cleaned that day….

What about one or two of the 3 Dales peaks, Pen y Ghent is a great walk from Horton, one or two slightly testing bits in any conditions, but obvious paths in snow, mostly.
Whernside is equally do-able and reasonably straightforward.
Ingleborough can be a bit technical in snow from at least one direction and that probably requires axe/crampons, it’s also difficult to navigate the summit plateau in whiteout conditions.
Personally, I think on many easier peaks you can get away without axe and crampons, good navigation ability being much more important, but often only experience gives you the ability to make that call.

If you are climbing and descending by the same route then it’s always possible to turn back if things start getting too dodgy. The skill is in assessing this correctly. It’s too easy to misjudge it – especially if you are not taking account of changes in the weather.

but often only experience gives you the ability to make that call.

Another option would be coledale horseshoe, lots of escape routes and pleasant terrain. I ran up Causey Pike/scar crags tonight in fell shoes and didn’t put micro spikes on, although wouldn’t have wanted to be without them. Easy access from m6 to keswick, route length can be varied, nice beer and grub at the bottom at Coledale inn. Happy to lend gear too (live near Keswick).