I’ve built myself a winter road bike (+ commuter and light tourer) everything was fine until I changed the shifters/brake levers to some Ultegra 6700 I got off the classifieds (I’d previously used Tiagra 4600 and 105 5700 and they were OK as far as braking, but changed from the Tiagra and changed from 105 as I needed them for a full 105 groupset for my sons bike).

Problem is poor braking, brakes are Shimano R650 long drop with Koolstop Salmon pads (these were great on my Singlespeed with flat bars and R780 levers), Shifers/brake lever are Ultegra 6700, wheels Mavic Aksiums, cables are a mix of spare bits Clarks Stainless steel inners, Shimano SLR and M system outers all new from the spares box.

The only thing I’ve changed is the levers and the cables, the brake pads and rims were dirty from a previous wet ride, went out to test the gearing and brakes after swapping over and nearly killed myself at the first junction, thought it was clear saw a car late and braked nothing, ended up in front of the car which luckily stopped. Went home feeling a prat, cleaned rims and blocks but when braking off the hoods it just doesn’t feel like I have the power once the blocks touch metal. The Shimano compatibility chart says they should be ok but not ideal, but the 5700 lever is in the same catagory and they were acceptable.

Could the cables cause the wooden feeling? When braking in the wet the rear brake is next to useless, front not much better, could it be I’ve been a fair weather cyclist and not used to contaminated pads and rims now I’m out in the wet?

You’d expect them to behave pretty much exactly the same whether 5700 or 6700 sti levers. Having said that, the 650 brakes (and to be fair pretty much all of the long drop brakes available) are pretty rubbish compared to decent short drop brake.

I solved the issue by fitting TRP RG957 long drop brakes which are massively better than any other long drop brake I’ve tried (shimano, miche, tektro) even with the standard pads they come with – easily as good as the Ultegra 6700 brakes on my summer bike.

you have flipped the little tension levers on the caliper back down? I forgot once and overshot the junction at the end of my road

As per SB, shouldn’t be much difference whether 5700 or 6700. Long drop calipers will be a bit flexier no doubt and/or may be the pads are contaminated.

What did you clean the rims with? Could there be a residue of cleaner or soap or whatever still on the rims?

Rim brakes in the wet can be very inconsistent. If you’ve not touched them for a while, it can take a moment or two to clear the water off the rims before they bite.

The 6700 and 5700 should behave the same. The 4600 would have been on the old cable pull ratio which is what the 650s were designed for, so you’d expect them to be better. Cables shouldn’t make too much of a difference – they may make the brakes feel spongy, but shouldn’t affect power unless they’re so spongy that the lever pulls to the bars.

R650 brakes are ultegra 6600. I have the full set on various bikes (R650, 6600, 6700 but not 6800 😉 ). I haven’t found any issues, but to be fair, the long drop brakes are on my fixed wheel not shifters. that said, braking with 6600 is fine, even in the wet.

So what’s changed? I’d check that the brakes close freely first, check the tension on the mounting bolt, then change the brake cable and outer. Might be catching on the exit from the shifter. this is hard to spot.

The TWO 6600-equipped Defy’s I’ve just built up with Clarkes brake cables and outers (cheapest in Halfords) are absolutely fine and feel no different to my nice Dura Ace/6700 Defy, nor my R650s. breaking isn’t Deore hydraulic or Propel V-brake sharp, but it is perfectly acceptable, even in the wet.

What I’m saying in a long-winded way, is that I suspect cables before calipers.

R650 are the same era as ultra 6600 but they are not the same – longer arms mean more flex and poorer leverage.

Arm length aside, they are the same, obviously 🙄

Strangely I’ve recently had the same experience on my winter bike. Tektro calipers, KS Salmons and 5800 levers.

Exact same setup was fine at the start of the year, so I suspect the pads have worn out. Unfortunately they’re seized in the shoes so I’ve not been able to replace them to check.

Thanks for the replies, the release levers were down, pads close to the rims the levers pull the brake to the rim but then go pretty solid, they are ok when braking off the drops but too stiff off the hoods. After my close shave I cleaned the rims with a clean rag and took the pads out and cleaned them with fine wet n dry paper, this improved things. Have been looking at the TRP brakes, but reluctant to spend the equivalent of a set of XT hydraulic disc brakes.

The cable pull ratio of x700 lever is not linear, so if your new levers are set so the brakes touch the rim earlier in the lever throw then you won’t have the same power. Try adjusting the cable so the pad contacts the rim slightly later in the lever throw – it makes a huge difference.

Thanks cp I’ll give that a go tomorrow, got a 35 mile ride planned for Wednesday so will have plenty of chance to test

so I suspect the pads have worn out. Unfortunately they’re seized in the shoes so I’ve not been able to replace them to check.

I’d be careful on that – lent a bike out that came back with pads so worn something in the pad holder had done a unfair amount of rim wall scraping

Here’s a pic of the bike, started life as a Pinnacle Dolomite 2 I bought off eBay cheap, the forks, tyres, mudguards, brakes, rear carrier, bottle cage and lights came from my old single speed (with the parts off this bike replacing them, before it was sold on eBay for the same price), Charge ti saddle, Easton seatpost, bars & stem + front mech again from eBay, wheels, rear mech, chainset, XTR pedals, shifters and Easton top cap from STW, with a few new consumable bits (chain, cassette, BB, cables, bar tape) and a cheap powder coat in middle sky blue RAL 5015. It’s not exactly lightweight but it sort of fills a gap between my carbon hardtail and and road bike as a do it all within reason, winter club rides, long distance day rides (long to me anyway, did my first ever 120km on this), next upgrade will be the bars as I’m not happy with the shape and if I can’t sort out the brakes then maybe look at the TRP ones. Long term I’d love a Titanium endurance frame.

If it was duff cable outers the brakes would feel spongy and unresponsive. A wooden feeling is a leverage issue (or pads, but you’ve not changed those), so I would go with cp’s advice first.

could it be I’ve been a fair weather cyclist and not used to contaminated pads and rims now I’m out in the wet?

Road calipers in general are good in the dry but can be very very dicey indeed if it’s wet enough i.e. raining with lots of standing water. Anyone who thinks they are fine can come on a South Wales Valleys ride with me and I’ll take you down a 1:5 hill that finishes on a busy roundabout, see how much confidence you have in your calipers when you are approaching the cars and not slowing down at all.

If they are correspondingly worse in the dry as well then you have some kind of problem, but it’s hard to see what. New pads and clean rims is about all you can do.

Decent calipers are fine if set up correctly and you ride to the conditions.

Ride to the conditions?

In other words, they’re, so you have to slow down. That’s your equippment limiting what you can do.

Took CP’s advice and backed off the brake pads a mm or two, made all the difference, went on a 30 mile ride along muddy lanes and despite the brake pad holders getting caked in mud they areworking adequately, did pick up a puncture though from a thorn thanks to the farmer cutting hedges.

Nice bike, but clean up that moss.

Having said that, the 650 brakes (and to be fair pretty much all of the long drop brakes available) are pretty rubbish compared to decent short drop brake.

This. I set mine up with fancy Swisstop pads and polymer cables, and they’re still not a patch on decent short-drop calipers, especially in the wet.

I have discs now…

Who reckons Molgrips needs some help setting his brakes up? 😉

Have the same problem on my (D)Ribble.
Long drop brakes, and decent pads, but not the best for stopping.

Just thought it was me!

Hopefully be my last winter on it, tho’ -a disk upgrade is long overdue..

Who reckons Molgrips needs some help setting his brakes up?

I’m all ears.

I’m working on the principle that the pads need to hit the rims nice and square, without too much lever movement, and the cables should be in decent nick. The rims and pads should also be as clean as possible.

If there are any secrets I’ve missed I’d be interested to find out. Brakes work very well in the dry, it’s the difference between wet and dry that is alarming.

@Teetosugars

^ they don’t look like long drop brakes to me, could be the angle of the pic but they look like normal ->47mm drop?

EDIT – maybe it really is just the angle of the pic :-s

Never had any issues with longer drop Shimano or Tektro callipers* in hilly Devon, sure wet weather is never as good as dry, but certinaly never into dangerous ‘failing to stop’ territory, normally using Swisstop or bargain-tastic but actually quite good Aztec pads from the LBS.

*And yes I have a disc braked road bike too so it’s not like I have nothing to compare to.

I’m working on the principle that the pads need to hit the rims nice and square

This. Do you toe the pads in at the front? Makes quite a noticable difference to the feel/power.

The cable pull ratio of x700 lever is not linear, so if your new levers are set so the brakes touch the rim earlier in the lever throw then you won’t have the same power. Try adjusting the cable so the pad contacts the rim slightly later in the lever throw – it makes a huge difference.

This, even if the leverage ratio was linear you may have an ergonomic advantage with the levers pulling further, and I would assume you’ll have set them up nice and tight to the rims when you swapped levers/cables.

Sounds like a bike shop set up to me. Let’s customers get away with never adjusting anything.

Decent wet weather pads (with a scraper if you can), toe in (not square), some where near mid point on lever stroke (so you are in the peak leverage bit of the system, not in the move the pads quickly bit)
Then an occasional drag of the brakes to keep the rim ands pad clear. (Not enough to actually slow you down though)
Just need to keep them clean and maintained then.
Only thing that degrades the performance of mine is ice on the system. That knackers my disc brakes too.

without too much lever movement

no, with 5700 & 6700 and whatever the dura ace series was of the era you need to be mid stroke at least. I’m not sure how other levers pull their cable, but certainly with those ranges initial pull is all about cable movement and getting as much as possible for a given lever movement. This keeps the pads nominally well away from the rims. The stroke then alters to give you a lot less cable pull but a lot more leverage – you want the rim-pad contact bit to be somewhere in this stroke.

While we’re on the subject of long drop brakes, can I ask if there’s a difference in performance between the R451 and the R650 because I have the R451 (with Swiss Stop Greens) and the performance is terrible.

I would actually say the only time I have ever felt truly afraid on a bike (including 5 trips to Mozine and 1 month in Whistler) was the first time I rode my Equilibrium with R451s on a wet windy ride around West Yorkshire. There’s no feeling or control at all and to get any decent amount of braking out of them requires a grip that could throttle a Staffy. Is it worth me trying a set of R650 or are they all this bad??

Sounds like a bike shop set up to me. Let’s customers get away with never adjusting anything.

Never had anything set up in a bike shop!

I remember this toe-in debate from the days of cantis on MTBs. I experimented with every combination back then, and toe-in was never particularly beneficial. Especially as the toe then wears out so you end up with a slightly curved pad. Pad wear ends up evening out any toe in you create.

As I said, brakes are great in the dry, and in the wet, but when there’s a watery film on the rims there’s several revolutions of nothing before they start to bite. Now I’m sure someone will say ‘of course, that’s to be expected’ and they’re right – it IS to be expected, that’s my point. It’s still shite. I get around it by braking earlier than I would otherwise, but that’s no help in an emergency which is what I am concerned about.

I’ll try toe-in again, but I’m not expecting it to make much difference.

no, with 5700 & 6700 and whatever the dura ace series was of the era you need to be mid stroke at least.

It is mid stroke. I say ‘not too much’ meaning not too much, as in the right amount, as in biting in the middle so they don’t come to the bars when I pull hard.

no, with 5700 & 6700 and whatever the dura ace series was of the era you need to be mid stroke at least. I’m not sure how other levers pull their cable, but certainly with those ranges initial pull is all about cable movement and getting as much as possible for a given lever movement. This keeps the pads nominally well away from the rims. The stroke then alters to give you a lot less cable pull but a lot more leverage – you want the rim-pad contact bit to be somewhere in this stroke.

Would this also apply to Dura Ace 7900 levers (are we talking 2009/2010)?

Never had anything set up in a bike shop!

i didn’t say you did. Ijust said it sounds like how bike shops set stuff up. They tend to set stuff up at one end of a very very long range, so you have many months of not doing anything before they wear to the point of failure. Pads hitting the rim after 2mm of lever motion is one of them, tyres at maximum pressure is the other.

Ride to the conditions?

In other words, they’re, so you have to slow down. That’s your equippment limiting what you can do.

So tyres still work on wet, gravelly roads just the same as dry? Of course not, you always have to adjust your riding to the conditions.

Maybe you just aren’t great at reading the road and anticipating things?

can I ask if there’s a difference in performance between the R451 and the R650 because I have the R451 (with Swiss Stop Greens) and the performance is terrible.

A very slight difference if any in my experience, they are practically identical brakes, the 650 is marginally, almost imperceptibly stiffer but it comes with much better pads that the 45X series brakes, the OEM 451 pads are terrible IMO, I fitted a new set to a bike last week, and scared myself silly on it’s first wet outing, went home via the LBS to get some proper pads, fitted when I got home, and now back to normal level of braking. I don’t know what the OEM 451 pads are made of but it seems to do a passable impression of those crap hard pencil erasers from the 80s-90s that never actually erased anything and tore through the paper instead, I’m sure they last ages but high friction is not one of their features.

With decent pads and setup though there is no reason they should be as bad as you describe, in the dry I can easily brake enough to lock-up/overcome traction from the hoods, in the wet it’s a bit worse (like any brake) but still enough control for me to be happy on > 20% grades without much bother, just slightly more effort than a standard drop calliper but nothing outrageous.

As with any rim brake in the wet the key is to remember to keep/clear the water off the rims as much as you can, ie: clear it regularly or before you need to brake hard, but this is true for short drop callipers/cantis/v-brakes whatever, you need to clear the water off first before you’ll get full power, and that’s where the ride to the conditions comes in, plan ahead and also do it as you’re going along.

To some degree when it’s really wet you have to do it for discs as well it’s just that they clear off a lot quicker due to having less water on them to start with, shorter braking track, and heating up quicker, so you barely notice. But there’s still that initial nothingness if you just slam on after a deluge or big puddles, dunking etc.

That’s another point, not all pads are equal, I’ve had “wet weather” pads that are rock hard so they last in gritty, shitty weather. I’ve also had “wet weather” pads that only last a few weeks as they are really soft and full of grooves. So they actually work as brake pads.
I don’t mind swapping pads monthly if i can stop when i want to. It’s not like the 5 minutes it takes is actually a big deal. And it gives you the chance to check out the rest of the system.

Just bought my first modern road bike (with Ultegra rim brakes, not discs), and I am finding the braking power to be low. I was wondering if this was just due to the unusual bar position (for me) on drop bars, and that I’ve become spoilt by discs on my MTB’s over the last ~15 years?

There’s a bit of adaptation between discs and rim brakes. I have rim and disc road bikes and going down a steep hill on the rim-braked bike in the wet after a couple of weeks of disc brakes always makes me a bit jumpy for the first couple of decent effort stops.

Well I’m still not impressed with my rear brake, I still feel that it’s not doing much at all, it’s almost impossible to lock up the rear even after cleaning. In the spirit of constantly upgrading I’ve picked up a set of used TRP RG957 for a good price from eBay they are coming from the US so should have them within 2 weeks, I’m also thinking of changing the Koolstop Salmons for SwissStop BXP.