• This topic has 39 replies, 30 voices, and was last updated 10 years ago by ajc.
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  • Will a 10 yr old hardtail frame be significantly inferior to a 2013 frame?
  • Aus
    Free Member

    Just a musing and argument at work – I’ve a 10yr old Dekerf hardtail frame (with relatively modern day components). It has a disc mount. So the build can be modern and bling.

    The qn is, will it ride ‘inferior’ or ‘lacking’ vs a modern frame, thinking geometry or materials? Does the rider lose out – the mktg press imply this possibly. What would ‘inferior’ mean?

    Just for the record, I love the frame and enjoy it 😀

    argoose
    Free Member

    Ride it, enjoy it.

    Aus
    Free Member

    I certainly do. Just that debate of ‘are you missing out on the latest thinking’? Prob fair re mobile phones, but less sure re frame production???

    Daffy
    Full Member

    I’d imagine that geometry has changed a little…maybe stiffness a little higher. I’d just book a demo ride and see for yourself.

    suburbanreuben
    Free Member

    Don’t be daft! If you want “modern” geometry stick a 120-140 fork on it. It#’ll handle it a whole lot better than these turds the kids buy today.
    Your Dekerf may look delicate and precious but it’s made to much tighter tolerances than any taiwanese tat; hence it’s stronger!
    What size is it? 😉

    toys19
    Free Member

    maybe it might lack some of the advantages of modern geometry, but if you like riding it then happy days. makes me think of Transition who have brought out their klunker which is kinda old school but with modern ish geo.. Its moot. Enjoy it.

    hora
    Free Member

    The marketing terms will have upgraded, improved and be upto date

    Is it murdered-out?

    deejayen
    Free Member

    I remember reading reviews of DeKerfs back in the day, and magazines always raved about them. I picked up a couple of brochures, and almost bought one – they were very expensive even then.

    I’m also interested about the geometry side of things. I have a Saracen from 1995, and when I recently attended a skills class the teacher said he wouldn’t ride it, and also warned me against doing so! Part of that was because it has canti brakes, but he took time to point out all its ‘wrong’ geometry. It’s a 19” frame, and I’m 6ft tall, but have to have the seatpost extended to the maximum mark, and could probably do with it slightly higher than that. However, the drop to the bars is very noticeable, plus it has a relatively long stem (somewhere between 110 and 130mm) and flat bars. He also pointed out head and seat angles being steeper, and the fact that the bars are pretty much directly above the front hub.

    I’m looking at different bikes and frames, a couple being a new Ritchey P26/P29 and a Breezer Lightning (names from the infancy of mountain biking). Would those bikes be similar to mine in terms of geometry and riding position (albeit with shorter stem and slight riser bars) or have even these builders changed their bikes’ geometries over the years such that they’re no longer like those earlier bikes?

    ponti
    Free Member

    Got a 2001 Giant ATX880 hardtail,which I bought new.
    Still love to ride it now as a change from my full sussers.
    My local trail centre is Llandegla,and it’s the perfect machine for me around there.Also great for going over the tops to Llangollen.
    Only thing I changed were the 100mm Rockshox Judys for Marzocchi MX Pro ETA 105mm.

    ampthill
    Full Member

    AUS

    Don’t put long forks on it. Modern bikes have long forks and slack angles and low bottom brackets. Putting long forks on an old frame won’t achieve that

    Steel frames won’t have changes much in terms of weight. It really depends what you want from a bike.

    deejayen

    A used pair of v bakes and levers would be very worth while IMHO

    Position wise if you like then stick with it. If you don’t then risers and or a shorter pointy up stem will get you to whatever position you want. I ride a bike that had similar geometry to yours from the late 1990, with a shorter stem. I think it rides just fine. But it does have a good pair of 80mm forks. For me suspension is essential

    If you buy a new frame very little component wise will be able to make the move. If the drive train is in good nick then maybe that could go across. The saddle as well? But brakes, stem, bars, forks and wheels area all going in the bin/ ebay. So I think a new bike is the way to go. Look at Merlin cycles for a steel rock lobster perhaps

    Kevevs
    Free Member

    Do you ride it and have lots of laughs? then keep it. Insecurity and paranoia about *the latest thing* and splashing out a whole pile of cash isn’t really going to increase those laughs. Ride what you’ve got and have fun.

    kev. 40. skint. wants a new bike..

    Aus
    Free Member

    thanks – no insecurity over it from me – I love it. It’s more an academic qn – I can believe full sus has come on over the last decade but just wondered if the same applies to hardtails

    This is it but now 1X9 and with SIDs

    tonyd
    Full Member

    Whats not to like about that bike?

    I have a 93 Cinder Cone which I love, its just a kiddie hauler/pub bike these days but it’s still a joy to ride. When I got it second hand everything but the saddle was original and hardly used. All I’ve done is replace the cantis with V brakes and then put on new grips, saddle, and BB.

    deejayen
    Free Member

    Thanks, Ampthill

    I did consider buying some suspension forks (Chain Reaction have 2008 Marzocchis with V-brake/disc mounts) but they’re still £250, plus any new bars/stem. It has SLX 7-speed with combined brake levers/Rapidfire shifters. I did have V-brakes on it at one time with TravelAgents, but swapped them with the canti brakes from my cyclocross bike, but could swap them back for now. I thought the suspension forks might raise the front end slightly as well.

    However, I’m okay with buying a new bike – it’s just knowing what! There are so many choices from old-school to full suspension, not to mention 26”/29” wheels etc. I’m a sucker for anything unusual so the old-school Breezer looks nice, as does something fully rigid, but then I’ve also ridden a couple of Santa Cruz bikes which are also appealing!

    Anyway, sorry about derailing your DeKerf thread, Aus. Your bike looks fab!

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    If it isn’t inferior, how will I justify something to replace the Soul?

    ampthill
    Full Member

    deejayen

    I bought a good condition pair of 80mm travel marzochi Z2 off ebay for under £100. Older forks are a bit shorter for the same travel and have canti bosses.

    Aus if that was my bike I’d just ride it

    Aus
    Free Member

    deejayen – you’re right, so many choices, maybe too many, but I guess trying new is sometimes half the fun (albeit, maybe no ‘better’, just different)

    orangeboy
    Free Member

    I have a now retro Saracen Kiki flyer ( Easton tubes ) alloy one
    Still has canti brake cable stop etc

    For normal xc use it still fine and still a very fast bike
    Trail centre stuff is a little slower and you have to concentre a lot as it can be a little twitchy

    It has to be mid – late 90s but can’t see why a modern xc hard tail would be much better excerpt disc mounts maybe

    FunkyDunc
    Free Member

    I recently sold a 14 yr old Klein hardtail. In every way it was as good as any 2013 hardtail, ok different geometry but every bit as good.

    Please can some one start making the old PACE rc36 too. They were so simple I design but so plush in use.

    muppetWrangler
    Free Member

    It’s got disc mount, suspension corrected geometry and it’s a beauty. I’d ride it until it fell apart and would never think I was missing out on anything.

    suburbanreuben
    Free Member

    An Elysium? You could probably do with some decent forks – Reba or Durin- but other than that, a modern hardtail will offer nothing extra. You’l be hard pressed to find anything that climbs as well.

    mrmo
    Free Member

    I have a ’97 Bontrager, for comparison it will be similar to the De Kerf, what has happened, basically, forks have got longer, angles slacker and top tubes longer.

    Is a new bike better or worse? hard to say, what do you want to ride, My experience of new bikes is they lack the twitchiness of older designs, again is this a good thing or a bad thing?

    PJM1974
    Free Member

    The same reasons why you bought it in 2003 are still relevant today. It’ll handle just as well, will cope with all day riding just as well and if it’s a De Kerf, will still be just as gorgeous.

    By all means, chuck some modern forks on it, but don’t be sucked into the marketing BS.

    haggis1978
    Full Member

    You have to compare it like for like. It’s a 100mm travel hardtail so compare it to a 2013 100mm hardtail as they are both designed for the same thing. to me the answer would be no. The 2013 is not better. My old 2002/3 DeKerf UK Ltd Edition was the best 26″ steel hardtail I’ve ever ridden and it wouldn’t be nearly as good as that Elysium. Having said that your Elysium looks crap and about my size as well so if your want to sell it 😉

    corroded
    Free Member

    I ride a mid-2000s Rocky Mountain Blizzard and the geometry is just as right for what it was designed for (singletrack agility) as it is now. I think a greater point of difference will be stiffness – a modern 853 steel frame can have tube diameters of 38mm (maybe more, I’m not sure), while the tubes of my Blizzard look more like 28mm. Just look how wide a Soul’s seattube is (my Blizzard’s takes a 26.8mm seatpost I think). So I’m guessing that will affect stiffness and perhaps also weight.

    mrhoppy
    Full Member

    I’ll start the bidding at 20p and a pack of tangfastics.

    mrmoofo
    Full Member

    But it’s not a 29er
    … so the answer is obviously it’s slower, doesn’t climb hills on it own, and can’t deliver peace and tranqility to the whole wide world.

    epicyclo
    Full Member

    The bike’s fine, just as good as it always was.

    You on the other hand are 10 years older and obviously need upgrading… 🙂

    chriswilk
    Free Member

    I’m still using my 1999 Zaskar as my hardtail.
    Back then it was unusual with it’s short back end, long top tube (and equally long stem).
    Now with short stem, wide ish bars and longer fork the geometry is remarkably similar to modern hardtails with 120mm fork.

    ajc
    Free Member

    Still ride my 2003 hummer. Still just as nice for riding up over and off things.

    Gunz
    Free Member

    I think there was a distinct jump in the mid-’90s, when suspension forks became more mainstream, that distinctly splits their suitability now.
    My Hei Hei from ’98 feels absolutely fine with 100mm forks and I can’t see me changing it ever. My ’93 Kilauea is just too ‘head down’ for me nowadays and wanders noticeably with sus forks on.
    As yours is well inside this I don’t reckon you’ll need to change it for a long while, I experimented with a 2005 Handjob and went back to the Hei Hei.
    Lastly, as you’re the proud owner of a Ti De Kerf, made before he put that bloody awful head brace on them, you’d be mad not to carry on enjoying it.

    Edit: Just had a look, didn’t realise they still made the Elysium, you should still keep it going though.

    pitduck
    Free Member

    mmmmmmmedekerf 😀

    Aus
    Free Member

    epicyclo – too right 😀

    sharkattack
    Full Member

    It’s a 19” frame, and I’m 6ft tall, but have to have the seatpost extended to the maximum mark, and could probably do with it slightly higher than that. However, the drop to the bars is very noticeable, plus it has a relatively long stem (somewhere between 110 and 130mm) and flat bars. He also pointed out head and seat angles being steeper, and the fact that the bars are pretty much directly above the front hub

    You have just described my nightmare.

    ransos
    Free Member

    I’m also interested about the geometry side of things. I have a Saracen from 1995, and when I recently attended a skills class the teacher said he wouldn’t ride it, and also warned me against doing so!

    Yet people managed to ride them perfectly well in 1995…

    trickydisco
    Free Member

    mmm yes derkerf

    want!

    Also want a Kona hei hei

    nedrapier
    Full Member

    Aus, just got mine spruced up. 1999 631 Generation. It’s still got it…

    ajc
    Free Member

    Ransos that bike description pretty much fits an old bike of mine. I rode it too but I did also break my collar bone in an over the bars jumping incident that would be far less likely on a modern bike with a higher front end and slacker geometry. We all used to ride round on race orientated bikes which are hardly best suited to what most people want to ride.

    ransos
    Free Member

    We all used to ride round on race orientated bikes which are hardly best suited to what most people want to ride.

    Having taken up mtbing in 1992, and still owning two MTBs from that era, I do accept that modern bikes are far more forgiving of the average rider. But that doesn’t mean that an old bike is going to throw you over the bars the minute you show it a bump in the trail.

    ajc
    Free Member

    1992, late starter. I agree with you, but I still wouldn’t get my very old rock hopper with 130 mm stem and about 100mm drop from saddle to flat bars out of the garage and ride it in anger off road again.

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