Our kids are not taught to speak a second language to a decent spoken level at school?
English is the international language is really an answer.
Kids could chose which language they want but surely an additional language would be a fantastic string to their bow and help their career in future life.

Agreed.

Mandarin would be a good start.

Loads of them are already learning a second language at school

English

😀

There are a could of possible reasons to my mind:

Which one? Whilst non-English speakers have a good one to aim for in English, because it’s spoken by the richest people – we have that as a default, so where do we go next -most populous? closest? next richest? not sure which one we would choose.

English is a bugger to learn and has lots of clunky and inconsistent ways of pronouncing things and structuring stuff – this makes it more difficult to learn other languages after it – unlike say Spanish and French which share at least some of this, English doesn’t.

Which one? Whilst non-English speakers have a good one to aim for in English, because it’s spoken by the richest people – we have that as a default, so where do we go next -most populous? closest? next richest? not sure which one we would choose.

I’m not sure about other European countries, or cities for that matter, but where I grew up in Sweden you got to choose your third language (between German, French and Spanish).

Agreed.

Mandarin would be a good start.

….towards a total collapse of the UK economy. How are you going to compete with one of the 1.4 billion Chinese willing to work in the UK for peanuts while living in a bedsit with 10 of his mates?

OP – that’s why our daughter goes to a Gaelic primary here. She speaks plenty of English at home with us (neither of us speak Gaelic). Naysayers say “but what use is speaking Gaelic – she’d be better learning Chinese”. I feel better 2 languages than 1, regardless of what the second one is IMO. Especially now she is fluent in 2 languages aged 6. And some kids in her class are on their 3rd or 4th language.

Gaelic may not be top of the list of 21st Century corporate recruitment shopping list, but learning another language is going to be a lot easier for her given she has 2 already.

Because the English model has never been to adapt and assimilate to foreigners, it’s been get drunk, go and bash the foreigner over the head and make them do what we want them to do…

(That’s the general premise of Jeremy Paxman’s book on The English)

As someone who works in the European head office of a financial services organisation, who did a degree in French (and lived there for a year in the early 90’s) but has totally let it go, I’ve only done this because all the non-English people here speak English…

How many people who learned French or German to a “decent spoken level” at school (I’d say to GCSE A/B-grade standard) actually gain any sort of career benefit to it in later life? Being proficient at ordering beers at an Alpine bar doesn’t count.

Which one?

i think that’s the problem. the not quite knowing which one is best we end up being absolutely half hearted in foreign language teaching.

My OH started school learning german – although she wanted to do french (after having had a french day at junior school) she had to do 2 years of german before being able to pick up french.

She went on to do a degree in french.

EDIT:

How many people who learned French or German to a “decent spoken level” at school (I’d say to GCSE A/B-grade standard) actually gain any sort of career benefit to it in later life?

I was disappointed to see how many good engineering graduate programs require a second language. doesn’t matter which one – i didn’t have one.

I’m not sure about other European countries, or cities for that matter, but where I grew up in Sweden you got to choose your third language (between German, French and Spanish).

Where I went to School you got to choose a third language and an ancient one as well (I did French, Spanish and Latin, all badly) however – in our current climate – it involves pupil choice and is therefore hand wringing lefty crap, and opposed by Michael Gove, if he can’t dictate what pupils will do from on high, then he does’t want to know…

Because the UK is very parochial, and many don’t see the advantage of learning other languages. Most are still stuck in believing that the UK is something special and are unable to open their horizons beyond these shores.

We did French and German at school, I never really bothered in those lessons because I never connected with what it could lead to in life at a later point, Really whish I had done so.

When asked why she wasn’t bothered about not being able to park when practising for her driving test in “Clueless”, Cher replied: “Everywhere you go has valet”…

Out of the mouth of babes… 😉

I suspect I know what the responses to this will be, but here goes anyway….

Bring back learning Latin in school.

Latin as a language helps you to learn how to, well, learn. It’s a little abstract, what with that whole “dead language” stuff, but that basic skill can then be applied to any and all languages.

Oh, and “Sextus est in horto”. 😀

We do seem spectacularly poor at languages in this country, myself included. Learning for example French or Spanish makes going on holiday much more enjoyable and increases your work opportunites.

As a slight aside re: Mandarin, it’s very difficult to learn, the Chinese will always speak better English and they are very hard nosed in business, knowing a few phrases isn’t going to help you at all.

Oh, and “Sextus est in horto”

Grumio e taberna revenit et villan intrat

I learned a reasonable amount of german, which I promptly forgot as I’ve never had any cause to use it since. I could use arabic or mandarin though. Or french, if only to buy lift passes without looking like a fanny.

AFAIK, modern foreign language was compulsory to GCSE. It was certainly compulsory from age 10-16 when I was at school.

Last govt. (don’t recall if Blair or Brown was PM at the time) removed it from KS4, but schools were obliged to offer it as an option. SO now it’s only compulsory for a few years.

If I were in Gove’s job, it would be compulsory from Age 6 to 16, an option or general studies at A-level, and a recommended option on degree course.

Here, and in Holland, they’ll even learn a few words of English in kindergarten.

because we don’t start teaching them till they are 11, when it is mostly a joke to most.

If anything is ever going to change on that front, kids should be doing atleast a minumum of an hour of language a week from the age of 5 or 6 i reckon..

Because its hard?

Forced to do three languages at school fully – French, German and Latin – but as flashy notes Latin made it easy to pick up Spanish as a quick O level in 1Y 6th as much as I hated Latin.

One of the merits (or demerits for some pupils) of the IB is the requirement to keep a language going or even take one up from scratch eg Italian AB initio.

Any “cornflakes” 😉 taking languages to higher levels are pretty shrewd. Unis increasingly keen to keep language depts full and that affects applications.

Here, and in Holland, they’ll even learn a few words of English in kindergarten

In Holland they are brought up on Cbeebies and CBBC. I don’t think you can take Holland as a good example.

I think the act of learning a second language teaches you more about your native language. Most of the grammar I assimilated came from French. Latin, I sat at the back reading computing books.

Because the UK is very parochial, and many don’t see the advantage of learning other languages. Most are still stuck in believing that the UK is something special and are unable to open their horizons beyond these shores.

We did French and German at school, I never really bothered in those lessons because I never connected with what it could lead to in life at a later point, Really whish I had done so.

+1

I have also had the issue that when I have been to Geneva you try and speak in bad French and the response is perfect English.

Although from experience when in France bad French is appreciated over just assuming they can speak English.

because we don’t start teaching them till they are 11, when it is mostly a joke to most.

If anything is ever going to change on that front, kids should be doing atleast a minumum of an hour of language a week from the age of 5 or 6 i reckon..

agree with this, the problem you have is how many primary teachers speak a foreign language well enough to teach it at any level.

i know lots of french/spanish/italian/german/chinese/korean/japanese people, none of them can speak english with an english accent, this is of course fine.

not only do Brits have to learn a foreign language, we have to learn a foreign accent too – we sound ridiculous, and we know it. Speaking french, with a dodgy ‘allo ‘allo accent is a humiliating experience, but see how far you get in france/italy/germany/etc. with an english accent.

i know lots of french/spanish/italian/german/chinese/korean/japanese people, their english grammar is all over the place – but it doesn’t matter at all.

see how far you get in China/korea/japan/etc. with dodgy grammar.

as a tool for verbal communication, rudimentary english is a piece of piss.

(i know spaniards and mexicans who communicate in english, as they find it easier than trying to understand the other’s version of ‘spanish’)

I liked languages but hated languages at school. Gave up French. I move to Sweden and it was much easier to learn just messing around and having fun making mistakes but communicating. Yes it is important to learn grammar but not as a long list. I tried to learn a bit of grammar and then the most common 100 words. That gets you a long way!

It is so easy for kids to pick up a new language if it is done in the right way. Here the kids learn English and Spanish/German from 7. Just don’t do it academically.

i was thinking this the other day, as a 24 year old I’d love to be able to speak another language fluently,

but when I was at school I dropped languages as fast as I could – I had zero intention whilst at school.

I came to this:

1: Languages are forced at school until Year 10. As anyone knows, force a child to do something and they instantly want to do the opposite. This is not the approach.

2. All the languages teachers at school were… well – one of them was an elderly french lady who had hairy arm pits, one was the type of guy who gets excited when the Ordnance Survey updates their maps and wears musky beige waistcoats, and the other was a “miricle you’re still alive” overweight guy who would sneak off for donuts during class (true story.) and make girls stand on desks to open the high up windows in the summer (another true story). This is NOT a good advert for languages. There’s a reason why the PE teachers are the popular ones at school.

Other cultures get a lot of practice in English and have a motivation to speak it because of the overwhelming volume of cultural output in English.

Language teaching in schools is much better now than it used to be, but when do the kids get to use it properly? That’s why it doesn’t get developed.

(i know spaniards and mexicans who communicate in english, as they find it easier than trying to understand the other’s version of ‘spanish’)

Having worked with loads of Mexicans (and all of us speaking Spanish) I find that very unlikely, although I suppose someone from deepest darkest Andalusia could be pretty unintelligible to someone from a similarly rural part of Mexico…

I lived in Antwerp for a while and was surprised at just how much TV is in English, 90% of it non subtiitled.

Being moar than a bit stupid and a wrong ‘un I seriously struggled with French/German at school, more than anything because I didn’t really understanding English….I get the feeling I missed out on a huge amount of stuff at first/middle school because of seriously shit teachers. My eldest comes home with English homework that I struggle with, she’s 9 haha, thank god for google and mumsnet!

I really don’t see how it matters at all. No point in learning French if you never end up living or working in France or end up living or working in another country. However I firmly believe that if you do spend a significant amount of time in another country then you should learn its language – of course you should, its not only practical but respectful, but no point in learning one just for the sake of it and just so we can have some artificial sense of feeling better about ourselves. I try my best when on holiday and can get by as a tourist in French, German, Spanish and (sort of) Italian and try to improve my rudimentary skills in those languages whenever I visit those countries.

It totally makes sense for other countries to learn English as a second language as that has been adopted as the international language – mainly due to the Americans – I think French was just as popular as English before the rise of the Americans, and if the French had colonised Northern America instead of us, then French would be the international language – and if that had happened then i’m sure we would have a much better grasp of French as a nation, but in that situation, do you really think the French would have bothered to learn English?! I really don’t think so. If things change and Chinese or Indian becomes hugely popular then it would make sense for us to start learning it in a compulsory fashion.

Its far more important that kids do well in subjects at school that actually interest and inspire them, whether that be a language or not, and will actually be of use in the real world, rather than force feeding them some random language just in case they might need it someday.

if the French had colonised Northern America

They tried! As did Spain and others to a lesser extent.

In its early years, there was a debate in the US about whether to adopt English or French as the language, and which country we should align ourselves with more closely. The argument for French was that they helped overthrow our tyrannical oppressors and gain independence.

I’m American, and took Spanish 7-9th grade. The only other option was French, or German in high school starting in 10th grade. I wasn’t really interested in learning another language, and really never used the Spanish that I did learn.

And from what I understand, neither China nor India has anything even close to a single language. Both have dozens of languages used in different regions. I think that over time, English (or some version of it) will become the world language. And its definitely not the one that somebody would pick based on ease of learning, consistent rules, etc.

Easy really. Most of us don’t need to . I’ll ignore holidays those are our own choice and we can do as well fell there. Also they play a very small part in our life and unless you stick to one country you are going to be wrong most of the time any way.
Who else needs another language? The very few of us who have international business on a face to face level. Go anywhere that has truly international business and there has to be a common language which is English.
There are a few people who may deal with foreigners as tourists but the first point above applies.
I fail to see why the fact that we happen to have the default language and rarely need anything else is a bad thing.
I agree that in years to come , Arabic or Urdu may be useful but again only at a face to face business level.

Of course you have to consider that fact that many of us do not consider ourselves as part of Europe. That is only a modern political issue not a cultural one.

I think our poor language skills in this country stem directly from us being an island and therefore traditionally having no need to learn other tongues

I really don’t see how it matters at all. No point in learning French if you never end up living or working in France or end up living or working in another country.

This is where I disagree. Education seems to be turning more into a sort of training for work these days. Only learn what will be directly relevant.

I personally think that people should be educated, not trained at an early age. It leaves them able to open far more doors and introduce far more influences in later life.

I was talking to a Spanish friend last night. Her boy gets his science lessons in English and is now also learning Mandarin… He’s 9…

I have a useful insight in to the area I work in. I teach furniture making, and did the course I teach on myself in 1995. The amount I had to do then and the lesser amount they do now in order to satisfy the examiners and get the same qualification is huge.. :-\

English is introduced at pre-school level in Eastern Europe in my experience, by the time they are 16, the students can speak English at an intermediate level. Out of hours English lessons are also very popular indeed.

So most 16 year olds could travel to the UK alone and get by, how many British 16 year olds could do the same in France and Germany?

Another thing that winds me up is hearing on the news that everybody wants to come to the UK because its paved in gold and benefits. In reality most people come here because English is their 2nd language and its the easiest English language speaking country to access. America and Australia are normally the end goal.

I manage ok speaking English, Wigan, Geordie and Australian!

Did German, French and Latin at school, found German the easiest of the three to pickup.