What about all the Muslim Israelis, who are full citizens just like the Jewish Israelis?

What about the Muslim Britains? Doesn’t seem to have much input on our foreign policy either.

I agree chickenman, I do not support Assad as I don’t know enough about how he has governed to have an opinion. But it’s easy to see that getting rid of Assad will lead to far more instability and suffering for the people of Syria!

As for justifying what the Zionists have done to the Palestinian people, how is their attitude and behaviour any different to the Nazi’s? The Palestinian people lived along side the Jewish people peacefully and allowed them to live in their lands.

If the Jewish people are intolerant to others in this way, why should any peoples in the world be tolerant towards them?

You cannot use world war 2 as an excuse to act like this, how can the Jewish people point to the holocaust and expect sympathy, when they have caused an event similar to the holocaust to befall the Palestinian people?

What about all the Muslim Israelis, who are full citizens just like the Jewish Israelis?

Indeed. Likewise I have often wondered why black people in the US ever felt they needed a Civil Rights Movement, when it was very clear that all black people in the US were full citizens just like white Americans.

As for justifying what the Zionists have done to the Palestinian people, how is their attitude and behaviour any different to the Nazi’s?

As I said before: oh, good grief.

A few thoughts on the peace loving and reasonable government of Iran:

They are Anti-Christian, Anti-Semitic and Anti Western, linked with rabid homophobia and the systematic oppression of women and any political opposition, show what a peaceful and peace loving state led by reasonable, humble, pious men Iran is.

Anyone can google Iran’s own media outlets for examples of the vitriol they spout. I believe the humble and pious Ahmadinejad is tolerant that he described Christianity as a “reeking corpse” on Iranian state tv recently. Then last week at the U.N. he stated that Israel had “no roots in the middle east” and would be eliminated…

And we’re expected to believe the nuclear ambition is peaceful….. Oooh look there’s a Rhino nibbling the ceiling in my living room

No-one should have nukes. But at the top of the list of those who shouldn’t have nukes are regimes which aren’t democratic, who sponsor terrorists overseas, and who have stated numerous times that they’d like to wipe one of their neighbours off the map. Now who does that description best fit – Iran or Israel

Israel is a democrcay but that hardly legitimises its actions – Nazi germany was a democracy [ lets not go there but he won votes/elections]. Point being democracies can do bad things just like despots [ not saying iran is a despot either for clarity]

Thankfully Israel has no need to sponsor terrorism overseas[ I assume killing democratic leaders on foreign soil constitutes terrorism] as it does it itself – is this better?
Wipe it off the map is a miss translation and has been covered many tomes on here and the actual reality of what was said is available via Google.
I see no greater fear in Iran having them than anyone else tbh – north Korea must be higher up anyones nutty countries list surely. Not sure China or Pakistan are countries i respect or condone and the former is no democracy,

The reason they must be stopped is how else can we bully them?

And we’re expected to believe the nuclear ambition is peaceful…

No we are meant to be shitting our pants or else we would not be able to justify invading or attacking another country we dont approve of. It seems to be working on some

bencooper thank you for clearing that up for us. How exactly is what the Israeli’s are doing any different to the Nazi’s.

They are held in check by international law and the fact that a lot of people oppose them in that area, in particular Syria! wonder why we want rid of that regime?

Can you imagine if the Israeli’s had the advanced weapons relative to that era and man power that Germany had? what do you think based on their behaviour so far, they would do?

Gweilo – Member

A few thoughts on the peace loving and reasonable government of Iran:

They are Anti-Christian, Anti-Semitic and Anti Western, linked with rabid homophobia and the systematic oppression of women and any political opposition

And you think it was any better or freer when Iran was under the brutal and torturous dictatorship which was installed by the West ?

You need to read up on SAVAK mate, and how it tortured and murdered under instructions from the CIA.

And contrary to your claim not all opposition is suppressed in Iran, some is indeed tolerated – which is more than happened when Washington was calling all the shots.

The much misunderstood and mistranslated Mr A Dinner jacket!! 😥

kaesae – Member
bencooper thank you for clearing that up for us. How exactly is what the Israeli’s are doing any different to the Nazi’s.

They haven’t built death camps and systematically gassed millions of people maybe….. I could be wrong of course

seems a bit silly using nazi imperialist ideology, an explicit plan to rule the world, as a metaphor for israeli policy. The situations are very different.

The simple truth for me is until all states are actually run by their people for the benefit of all, and by extension respecting all others self determination then conflict is inevitable.

I think Trotsky had some useful theories in this respect 😉

Can you imagine if the Israeli’s had the advanced weapons of that era and man power that Germany had? what do you think based on their behaviour so far, they would do?

Yes if Israel had the advanced weapons of 1940’s 😕

There fixed that for you junkyard, I was in the middle of doing something else, advanced weapons relative to that era. Does that make more sense?

They are held in check by international law…..

What are these “International Laws” you keep talking about ?

chickenman – Member

The much misunderstood and mistranslated Mr A Dinner jacket!!

Yes of course, because Israel and America are only anti-President Ahmadinejad, not anti-Iranian, it’s all about just him.

And if Iran is attacked the only target will be Ahmadinejad – no other Iranians will be harmed 🙄

ernie_lynch – Member

You need to read up on SAVAK mate,

They sound like a perfectly lovely bunch…. not sure where it says the CIA ordered them to do it, but thanks for the pointer and I’ll read some more.

That said the behavior of the previous regime does not in any way excuse the behavior of the current one.

Please correct me if I’m wrong, which I might be be, but Didn’t Iran ban the last 2 official parties of opposition in 2010?

gweilo, you really need to look at the circumstances in relation to the Palestinian people, including their history and current situation.

If we look at the population of Palestine and the Palestinian people from say 1900 and then extrapolate their growth and development as a nation.

Including projected economic growth and population increases, show me then how there is any difference from the parasitical mentality shown by the Zionists that control Israel and the equally revolting and also parasitical attitude shown by the Nazi’s in their persecution of those who follow Judaism?

It is not easy for me to say this about the Jewish people and it has not been easy for many of their own religion to say similar, but it must be said as fear has caused them to stray from the righteous path and they risk truly becoming the fallen!

Surely by any measure of war against a people or acts that are insane due to there brutality or scope, it is fair to say that just as much tragedy has befallen the men, women and children of Palestine as befell the Jewish people?

Whilst having every sympathy for the palestinian people in their struggle with the Israeli state, i fail to see the ideological comparision with the the stated aims of the third reich.

all you will end up with is godwins law !

There are an awful lot of Jews in the US who have money, power and influence so hence their support of Israel. But the States as with a few other countries will “support” any country who they would like to influence or want spend money on US arms and technology. Remember, Iran was the only country in the world to buy F-14 Tomcats, along with the Phoenix long range AAM in a huge multi million dollar deal. Luckily when Iran fell out with the US the planes were basically useless due to poor maintenance and they could only use them as long range radar systems instead.
I don’t trust Israel and I don’t trust the US either. They supported the IRA yet we are supposed to have “special relations” with them now! Sorry no.

I would like to see a world where evangilistic nutters can be viewed in a dedicated theme park, rather than having them having disproportional amounts of influence on world affairs (I include Bush and Blair btw). The Middle East is fares rather badly in this..
Kael, something we should all take to heart don’t you think??

I thought this discussion was about Iranian nukes,or at least their attempts to get them, rather than Israel and the Palestinians. I have to say I find you views, extremely biased. The way you use the word Zionist in your posts comes across like a term of abuse. I’m not even going to get into your dubious extrapolations or the religious clap -trap.

IMHO I think it would be very bad news for the region if the fundamentalist state of Iran acquired nuclear weapons.

Are the Israelis like the NAZI’s ….. no, not really, in fact the comparison is ridiculous.

Have they treated the Palestinians fairly or reasonably…. no, not at all.

Should the Palestinians receive a fair and equitable settlement … yes

So what is your view on the state of Israel, should it be allowed to exist in peace?

So what is your view on the state of Israel, should it be allowed to exist in peace?

Do you think they will get peace whilst they treat the Palestinians like that – illegally settling in their country , economic sanctions etc. FFS we are talking about people who have no water and sanitation watching Israelis in their own land having a swim in their pool by armed guard. Is this likely to endear them to the Arabs within the region or likely to do anything other than make the Palestinians more extreme in their dislike – anyone in that situation would dislike the oppressor.

yes it should have peace i would question whether it really wants it tbh [ they wont stop building on occupied land despite even the US asking them to. This is no road map to peace- it also kills quite happily itself

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_assassinations

Now agian why os this states record so superior tot Iran that we can trust it?
illegally occupying and settling land, state sponsored assassination [ we would call that terrorism if we disliked them] and illegally getting nukes.

I tried to talk about this to a couple of Israelis who are (bizarrely) on their way to Compostela. You could have cut the air with a knife. I finished by wishing them a happy life with children to love. One of them knew the Sting song which lightened the atmopher e a little.

Is the USA still the most powerful nation on the planet? China must be close, if not more powerful, by now.

well if all of China jump they can cause an earthquake – can the USA claim that ?

You know what Junkyard, I don’t disagree with you. As I said above the Palenstinians deserve a fair and equitable settlement, and whilst the extremists in Israel continue building illegal settlements, and oppressing the Palestinians then peace remains a whole hell of a long way off.

I also agree with you, without a link to wikipedia, that Israel assassinate what they view as terrorists, they have followed a well defined policy of “terrorize the terrorist” since 1972. And I suspect will continue to do so.

My question was aimed at kaesae, having read his bizarre accusations of Nazism and generally offensive tone when referring to Israel and the Jewish people I was interested in his view.

You are new here aren’t you – good luck with that mission.

For me the change must come in the mind set of the people doing the “war” or the “terrorism”.
I see little impetus for a political solution [both sides tbh]and Israel method of making a settlement on the ground will probably lead to a Northern Ireland type solution for a number of generations.
Who knows what will be the “tipping point” for either nation

What are these “International Laws” you keep talking about ?

Might is right and if you don’t agree I don’t give a f88k cos there’s f88k all you can do about it because I’ve got the biggest guns. More or less.

Junkyard – Member
You are new here aren’t you

Was that question/statement to me? If so the answers no. I used to post on this site back when there were 2 forums, one on Coffee and the other for all hings bike related, off-topic or not 😕

What worries me that you as a self confessed raging leftie (previous posts on poll leads I thnk) talk an awful lot of sense, and I find myself agreeing with your last post as well. God forbid I’m a closet Grauniad reader 😉

kaesae – just a bit of polite feedback. Your writing style is awful. It’s verbose, poorly structured and inarticulate. The smattering of hyperbole does nothing to enhance your argument(s). I do not care either way about the point you’re making, I just wish to point out you’re making it very badly. So badly in fact it’s annoyed me.

rudebwoy – Member

Whilst having every sympathy for the palestinian people in their struggle with the Israeli state, i fail to see the ideological comparision with the the stated aims of the third reich.

all you will end up with is godwins law !

Rudebwoy what if we do not allow our minds to be clouded on this matter by theology, religion or any other distractions / justifications.

What if we simply look at the similarities instead, all too often these days we seize upon our differences then use them as an excuse to convince ourselves that others are not our equals.

What is we look at the similarities between the two situations in terms of Attitude, motivation and behaviour.

Let’s look at the two peoples attitudes.

The Nazi’s were only able to do what they did to the Jewish people because they saw them as unequal or without equal value. The Jewish people can only do what they are doing to the Palestinian people because they see them in the same way and use the same attitude towards them. There is a great deal of similarity in these two attitudes and I think the Jewish people need to be wary of what they are becoming. The Nazi’s sent the Jews to death camps, can the camps of the Palestinian people not also be called death camps? [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ6lIsl-pHU[/video]

Now lets look at motivation.

What did the Nazi’s want and what do the Jewish people want? well put simply they want to expand their territory via military means and are prepared to commit acts of terror, tyranny and oppression to do so.

In a real sense both parties with you enforce their will upon other via the use of state of the art weapons and war! there are a great many similarities in terms of motives.

Then we have behaviour.

The Nazi’s were without limit to what they were willing to do to the Jewish victims that were unfortunate enough to fall into their hands, they were willing and able to justify anything and the people of that time agreed with their mentality and attitude, there are a great many similarities between these two separate and yet equally tragic events in the history of our race.

However the Nazi’s did what they did a long time ago, their intolerance, savagery and utter contempt for human life is unacceptable and should serve as a reminder and lesson to all of us to this day, about the dangers of complacency in terms of our leaders accountability.

However to point to the holocaust that happened so long ago and use it as an excuse to justify the actions of the state of Israel here and now, to become the very thing that you fear the most and bring despair and suffering to a people who once befriended and welcomed you to their lands?

To me, when all the bullshit is removed, there is a great deal of similarities between these two situations in terms of attitude, motivation and behaviour!

tomd, I have a learning disability that stems from being an uneducated idiot, I am however working on sorting that out. I’m sure if you try very hard you will be able to understand me, you may not agree with me but some of what I am saying is surely comprehensible 😀

The Nazi’s sent the Jews to death camps, can the camps of the Palestinian people not also be called death camps?

No about 6 million times NO- FFS they are treating them poorly, they are bastards to them but it is hardly a systematic attempt to wipe them off the planet and destroy them

well put simply they want to expand their territory via military means and are prepared to commit acts of terror, tyranny and oppression to do so.

Behave – whilst I criticise them for occupying land they could probably take over most of the middle east if they wished and could have done for the last 40 years

The Nazi’s were without limit to what they were willing to do to the Jewish victims that were unfortunate enough to fall into their hands, they were willing and able to justify anything and the people of that time agreed with their mentality and attitude, there are a great many similarities between these two separate and yet equally tragic events in the history of our race.

Strange you never mention any of the similarities

However to point to the holocaust that happened so long ago and use it as an excuse to justify the actions of the state of Israel here and now,

Yes i agree

to become the very thing that you fear the most and bring despair and suffering to a people who once befriended and welcomed you to their lands?

Yes the history of Israel is the history of them being warmly welcomed to the area 😕

To me, when all the bullshit is removed, there is a great deal of similarities between these two situations in terms of attitude, motivation and behaviour!

You have to be trolling now one can be this daft and have such an incoherent argument or make such a daft comparison so incomprehensibly explained.

chickenman – Member

I would like to see a world where evangilistic nutters can be viewed in a dedicated theme park, rather than having them having disproportional amounts of influence on world affairs (I include Bush and Blair btw). The Middle East is fares rather badly in this..
Kael, something we should all take to heart don’t you think??

Yes the people of the middle east fair badly in this situation, the problem as I see it is we need to sit down and agree on what are the basic rights of each individual, like equality, right to practice their religion or faith and a way for everyone to be involved in the managing of their lives. We need to be more open and understanding and also to grasp that we do not have the right to force people to do anything, if we want to debate something with them, then the power and force of our arguments are all we can justify using, unless in defense of ourselves or those we love.

There are far too many people using all sorts of positions only to benefit themselves or their allies at the expense of others. Too many people who claim to be followers of the prophets or emissaries/messengers of god. Who do not understand why equality is important or essential.

Junkyard, you are not looking at the situation in relative terms. The Israeli’s considering the circumstances they find themselves in and the restrictions placed upon them by the US and other powers, have acted in a way that as far as I am concerned, comparable to the Nazi’s.

Not only because of the similarities of the two groups in terms of attitude and subsequent behaviour but also because we have to factor in the different era’s.

As for Israel being able to destroy or take over most of the middle east, I think you will find that soviet surface to air missiles and other air defenses are one of the main reasons that Israel backed off a bit in it’s aggression towards it’s neighbours, it’s one thing to attack technologically inferior forces or states, it’s quite another when they can fight back.

Hadge – Member

There are an awful lot of Jews in the US who have money, power and influence so hence their support of Israel. But the States as with a few other countries will “support” any country who they would like to influence or want spend money on US arms and technology. Remember, Iran was the only country in the world to buy F-14 Tomcats, along with the Phoenix long range AAM in a huge multi million dollar deal. Luckily when Iran fell out with the US the planes were basically useless due to poor maintenance and they could only use them as long range radar systems instead.
I don’t trust Israel and I don’t trust the US either. They supported the IRA yet we are supposed to have “special relations” with them now! Sorry no.

There are an awful lot of people in the world who have power, the real problem is that they all too often assume they know better than anyone else and abuse it.

I don’t trust the US government or a lot of the people behind the scenes in the US, I also have to question the actions of Israel.

Too much money is being wasted on war and not much is being used for the development of evolution of our race.

the development of evolution of our race

What, like eugenics?

What are these “International Laws” you keep talking about ?

Might is right and if you don’t agree I don’t give a f88k cos there’s f88k all you can do about it because I’ve got the biggest guns. More or less.

So you agree then.

There is no such thing as the “International Laws” that have been mentioned previously.

Do we have any estimates as too how many Palestinian civilians have died in relation to the population of Palestine?

Some estimates are as high as 1.5 million from the beggining of the conflict in 1948.

Are there any credible sources that can offer numbers on the realistic figures of the casualties?