https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/26/little-brother-die-persistent-vegetative-state-death-court-family

An excellent piece from an excellent person.

That’s a powerful and difficult read. Thanks for sharing.

FWIW, whilst I’m thankfully in no position of experience, I wholeheartedly agree with her.

We treat animals better than that. I was only discussing this (academically rather than practically) earlier today but the question has to be asked, “who are we doing this for?”

We live in a unique period of mankind’s development, where our ability to be able to keep people alive is in some cases outstripping our ability to gauge whether we should.

We live in a unique period of mankind’s development, where our ability to be able to keep people alive is in some cases outstripping our ability to gauge whether we should.

Well put Cougar. It amazes me that what we would do for a family pet to help ease it’s pain and suffering, we can’t do for a family member.

Cripes.. read that and agree with the outcome, and agree with Cougars points too.

I had the read the court findings on the Tony Bland case (during some legal training i was undertaking around that time)and I can honestly say it was harrowing.

That’s a powerful and difficult read.

It is. I should have perhaps added a slight disclaimer that I played a bit part in this story, in the book referenced, and perhaps that’s why this particular story is a little closer to my heart. Cathy, and her wonderful parents, went through a lot.

An issue that deserved to be shared, I feel.

Powerful, genuinely moving. You can’t imagine it, can you?

Two things – Mrs Pondo’s mum had a heart attack in July, she had CPR for over half an hour and a major (probably THE major) concern was neuro damage. Thank goodness her recovery has been almost 100% complete (she struggles to remember the names of cakes and flowers!) but she is by and large the person that she was before. But the Sunday after it happened, I’ll not forget – after four days of being kept unconscious, on waking she would open her eyes but there was nothing, absolutely nothing behind them. Not by any stretch the same as PVS, but utterly terrifying to think (and it was a very real possibility at the time) that all that may be left afterwards was a lifesize doll, still the same person but totally not that person at all. * Shivers *

The second thing kind of relates to Mrs Pondo’s gran, who sadly suffered a stroke – spent many an hour in her room in the stroke suite at the QE but my main memory was of the lady in the bed next to her, Mabel. Mabel spent the last of her days staring open-mouthed at the ceiling – I daresay she knew nothing of what was going on, but still, please lord spare me from gasping my last like that. I never saw anyone visit her – often thought I should see if there’s scope to volunteer to read for people like her, or anyone in hospital who may appreciate it. I’m a knob for never doing it. 🙁

respectfully, any comparison to what we do for animals is vastly simplifying the issue. It relies on the assumption that assisted dying is always ‘better treatment’, whether it is or not is exactly the argument here. We have the capacity to reason and contemplate our own mortality, which is why we cannot make that comparison to treatment of animals and that this is such a morally complex problem.

The article (which is a precis of the book so not that detailed), details a pretty limited example, obviously (as its her experience). Though she would prefer to keep it specific to her particular case you cannot avoid the wider moral issues surrounding this subject.
Unfortunately despite her view simply disregarding anyone else’s opinion unless they have experienced first hand someone in PVS is not possible, taking the emotion out of these decisions is part of the dilemma which is why previously these cases are brought to court – for an objective, reasoned, non-emotional analysis. We must all be involved in that discussion.

I am currently contemplating this very thing greatly at the moment, due to a close relative suffering an acute stroke at the weekend.
As the article mentions, it’s an all at once confusing mish mash of conflicting thoughts and actually I find myself being cross that we artificially support life for so long after useful life. But who am I to say?

I can’t imagine how difficult that must be. Sometimes there seems such a fine line between keeping someone alive because we can – which seems cruel and unfortunate – and legitimately saving and sustaining a life because the person has a legitimate chance of recovery.

pondo, I like your idea of reading to people. I haven’t done it either, but at least you care.

pondo – Member
I never saw anyone visit her – often thought I should see if there’s scope to volunteer to read for people like her, or anyone in hospital who may appreciate it. I’m a knob for never doing it.

Like hell you are a knob you had enough to deal with with a relative who you obviously cared for, having gone through 2 deaths this year of mothers you feel so utterly useless most of the time its only natural to question yourself.

My biggest fear at the moment is dying before my wife as she has many care needs and I don’t want her to be left being cared for by strangers as she spirals down into her condition.

Great read, thanks for sharing.
I have and my parents have both made their feelings clear regarding this issue but without law change it seems difficult to follow through with.

I should see if there’s scope to volunteer to read for people like her, or anyone in hospital who may appreciate it. I’m a knob for never doing it

You are not alone.

A very powerful article.

Personally, in cases of PVS I wholeheartedly agree with Ms Retzenbrink.

However, not everyone is as good and decent a person as she is.
I’ve met a few relatives of people with severe brain damage who just don’t want the injured person around anymore, because it’s inconvenient and life changing for all concerned.

I currently know one person who’s injuries were so severe his parents were told he’d never wake from his coma.
Five years later they are walking again.
We sent a similar individual home recently, after much work and rehabilitation and I know one long term coma patient now living on his own almost completely independently.

I’ve also met several people who have, legally, gone to amazing lengths to obtain the property and assets of elderly relatives then refused to have anything more to do with them or their care.
Couple this with the often overwhelming desire of many older people not to be a ‘burden’ on their families and you can see how carefully we need to proceed.

There are some genuinely horrible people out there and we need to ensure the most stringent and comprehensive safeguards are in place before we even consider amending legislation further.

I’m not sure we’re yet capable of getting this one right.

Love and my utmost respect to anyone currently dealing with these issues.

barkm

I am currently contemplating this very thing greatly at the moment, due to a close relative suffering an acute stroke at the weekend.
As the article mentions, it’s an all at once confusing mish mash of conflicting thoughts and actually I find myself being cross that we artificially support life for so long after useful life. But who am I to say?

The key thing morally and legally is that you act in accordance with their known wishes. Some people want to fight to the end, some do not is my experience and both must be respected.

I am currently contemplating this very thing greatly at the moment, due to a close relative suffering an acute stroke at the weekend.

If it’s of any help, I don’t doubt that everyone’s different but despite initial appearances people can get better from strokes.

My mum had a stroke a few years ago. She was a mess, unconscious for several days and then talking absolute shite when she finally came round. Whilst in hospital following the stroke they discovered that she was in in imminent danger of double kidney failure.

Fast-forward several years, and you’d never know. She’s got to be careful these days, she has balance and vision issues, but outwardly you’d never know it’d happened. Her mental faculty is as close to 100% as anyone of that age, she still sits at home watching Eggheads and doing cryptic crosswords.

In a twist of irony, the stroke probably saved her life. She’s in and out of hospital for blood tests and to have stents replaced every six months or so, but if she’d not been hospitalised for the stroke then her kidneys would probably have ended her with in the year.

Rusty Spanner – Member

There are some genuinely horrible people out there and we need to ensure the most stringent and comprehensive safeguards are in place before we even consider amending legislation further.

totally agree. I

These sorts of issues I have dealt with a fair amount over the years mainly in the context of older people. I have seen old ladies just stop eating and fade away. Thats an ethical minefield. I have seen people kept alive by families who care almost too much.

Key things

Put the person in the centre. What would they want if they were able to make the decision.

Have those discussions with your family and parents now and get it written down. I hold power of attorney for 3 elderly members of my family – just in case. I know what their wishes are and its different for all 3

Be very clear about your commitment – just how much are you prepared to do? In the case above it took over their lives.

Put your own feelings aside.

Personally I think its should be a human right to have a good death at the end of a life. Painfree, peaceful, dignified with our loved ones around us.

I certainly intend to – and it will hopefully be at a time and a place of my choosing withthe medication of my choice. Bromptons cocktail perhaps

It’s a hard read. Though I do agree with it (all things being checked with doctors etc).

However I guess some always hope for changes in technology or medicine that allow something different.
Like this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/man-paralysed-vegetative-state-nerve-implant-regains-consciousness-vagus-a7968756.html

Personally I think its should be a human right to have a good death at the end of a life. Painfree, peaceful, dignified with our loved ones around us.

I certainly intend to – and it will hopefully be at a time and a place of my choosing withthe medication of my choice

This.

I made a will in the summer when i was in heart failure, in it i state that i dont want life supporting measures should i go into cardiac arrest, i also filled out a DNAR (do not attempt resucitation) order and had it signed by two DRs at the hospital.
Living with brain damage is not something i’m interested in.

I have also made plans re. stockpiling meds/opiates for when i choose to end things as opposed to a long protracted death from chronic heart failure, seems only sensible to me.