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Why does mtbing alienate women & to what extent does this hold back the sport?
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Posted 11 months ago #
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It's been interesting to see how many of the stw female mtbers don't enjoy or know how to maintain or look after their bikes. I'm one of them and am quite ashamed that hubby does all the upkeep, servicing and looking after the bikes.
I do clean them and can change an innter tube if I get a flat but apart from that, all the info he gives me seems to go in one ear and out of the other. It's not being lazy, as I end up doing all the house type things, it seems to suit us.
Maybe because my actual job is very female orientated.Posted 11 months ago # -
I think I have now out-spodded myself!
Can I ask Sue, are you single? I think I've just fallen in love!
Seriously though, fair play you know your subject but I am still a little surprised by what I consider to still be a small sample. You're bang on correct, sample size really can depend on the significance of the change you're trying to see, but I've always taken the approach that too much data is better than too little. Suppose I've been lucky enough though that any statistical analysis I've ever done, all my data has come out of a machine, and I've only had to interrogate access databases and excel spreadsheets to get the data I needed, not wait on actual people to actually respond to a questionnaire!
Posted 11 months ago # -
You're right, a bigger sample would be much better! Unfortunately it really expensive to run 'human' surveys, and I can't see my budget getting any bigger over the next few years.
The down side is that in some areas, the sub-sample sizes are too small for statistically robust analysis. One of those areas is in relation to 'non- white' demographic groups. Collectively, only 2% of the adult population in Wales is from non-White ethnic groups, so I can't do any analysis. Especially as there is obviously a huge diversity of different ethnic groups and cultures within that 2%, and assuming that all of them are the same would be rather wrong!
There's been some interesting qualitative research that's been done on perceptions and preferences of different ethnic groups towards participation in outdoor pursuits and use of the 'countryside'. But overall I think our starting point should be to understand people's preferences first, and then consider whether what is currently offered as 'outdoor recreation' today really meets the needs of the diversity of people in the UK, or just the preferences of a traditional minority?
Posted 11 months ago # -
Oh, and happily* single ... probably due to not being a proper girl and going out biking rather than shopping, plus being a bit of a research spod ... I suspect neither are considered particularly sexy by the majority of guys!
* most of the time - having a bit of a blip today as I'm trying to deal with some rather bad news and a hug or shoulder to lean on would be kinda nice right now ... but I'm going to WTFU and go out for a ride now ..,
Posted 11 months ago # -
There is some very interesting comment on here and some very rubbish ones as well. But lets face it. What the STW dwellers think is just not representative at all about the mtbing community.
Its probably a fair comment about STW bias - the forum is kind of James May as mountain biking.
Posted 11 months ago # -
But overall I think our starting point should be to understand people's preferences first, and then consider whether what is currently offered as 'outdoor recreation' today really meets the needs of the diversity of people in the UK, or just the preferences of a traditional minority?
This is where I have doubts about the inclusion programmes - great but also you do wonder if its just another form of cultural imperialism. Despite this niggle I'd still think they are a good idea so long as the are providing informed choice.
Posted 11 months ago # -
I got my hubby into mtb'ing, and am much more likely to a) spend ages researching new bike bits or b) be found fettling than he is. I have noticed an increase in the number of women I see out and about in the few years I have been riding, but I think that part of the problem is that generally women don't get to dump the kids with the spouse while they beetle off riding for the day (certainly the case with my ex riding friends). Another issue is that for the same level of fitness guys are generally faster and stronger than women, so if you ride with men because the women are doing childcare you get fed up with feeling like you're holding everyone up, again. I only ride with my hubby, coz he has to put up with me, it's in the contract, and the only time I've been faster than him uphill I was training for a marathon & substantially fitter. I'm lots faster than him downhill though!! As a sweeping generalisation, I think women are less interested in the competetive aspect of the sport, that's certainly the case for the limited number of mtb'ing men & women I know. I have absolutely no desire to compete with anyone other than myself.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Does it hold the sport back? Proof?
Look, life is short, don't give the men/women thing any energy, just go and ride yer bike, I don't give a shit about whether the PEOPLE I ride with are men or women (or black/white/yellow/brown/fat/thin/tall/short/hairy/bald/rich/poor)
I forgot, I hate the golf analogy, golf is about social climbing,biking isn't.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Hmm! I'm female and have mtb'd for last 6 years after a break for about 10 years whilst being pregnant and looking after small children. Oh yes! I mtb'd on a fully rigid 40lb (probably) steel bike in the 90's and was never aware that I wasn't supposed to ride on footpaths.
Women are not the same as men. This shows in physiological testing (such as men have a higher VO2 capacity, which allows greater supply of oxygen to the muscles) and quite often out on the trails. The reason many women, myself included will let someone - who may be a man - overtake them, is because I enjoy riding far more without someone impatiently following me.
I am far less competitive than my husband, but I still am competitive, but pick my 'fights' as I have less resources in speed, strength and technical skills. I find I generally push myself harder when riding with faster riders who may be men or women, due to this competitive edge and not wanting to be the 'weakest link' for all of the ride. I also really enjoy riding in groups where the pace is sociable and it may take several hours longer to do a ride than usual. I enjoy both sorts of rides and it adds to the overall appeal of mountain biking for me. It doesn't matter too much what the mix is of male / female
Some blokes are idiots on bikes and very intolerant and so are some women.
1 of the few times I have felt overpowered by the male side of mtbing was one weekend at Afan, where the testosterone could be smelt for miles and it took me a little while to settle, but I soon realised it was nothing to worry about.
Industry wise - I fit men's bikes better than womens, so have no issues there, enter very few events and never win prizes and was unaware they were so rubbish.
I think a lot of it is about individuals - those women who want to ride and be out of their comfort zone, get cold and muddy, have bruises and cuts to hide at weddings etc will do.
I think there are so many opportunities for women to ride nowadays, they would have to look to themselves for reasons not to ride, but I am very biased.Posted 11 months ago # -
golf is about social climbing
Where did you get that idea from - TV/film stereotypes maybe? Golfers come from all walks of life
Posted 11 months ago # -
It's the type of men that MTB that are "holding back the sport". I'm a hot, fit bloke and I bike with loads of chicks. You lot must be right munters. Stop being geeks that spend all your time on the internets and being insular, body concious hypochondriacs and have some fun. The chicks will flock to the sport. Hope this helps.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Woody: the firm I work for, do we have mountainbiking days? No, we do not. Do we have golf days? Yes, we do. Do we have golf tournaments with potential/important clients? Yes, we do. Do we make/cement lots of contacts on the golf course? Yes, we do. Are lots of our clients fellow golf club members? Oh, yes, they are.*
So, no, not from film/tv, from real life.
This is representative of the industry, and of the industries of the clients. Fact.
Posted 11 months ago # -
This is representative of the industry, and of the industries of the clients. Fact.
There is some business done on the golf course just as some business is done in pubs. Does that mean everyone who goes to the pub is a social climber?
You can't tar everyone who plays golf with the same brush, anymore than you can say mtb's are the preserve of middle class white males!
Posted 11 months ago # -
I'll be honest I haven't read all 6 pages of this post but I'll put in my twopenn'orth if that's ok.
I'm a female rider and at the moment I ride with a group on a Sunday morning when I can. A couple of weeks ago there were 5 of us out, and that's fairly normal. Yes, we stop and chat about sections but it's a mixed ability group and sometimes we want to session a spot so we can get better. That doesn't always happen with the blokes.
However, on that Sunday there were women all about the place riding in groups or with male partners/friends (I didn't ask). i actually commented on how many I'd seen.
I don't ride as much as I'd like but that's not because I feel alienated but because I have a small child. I no longer do the evening or all day rides I used to. My hubby (and riding buddy) and I last went out together months ago as we tag team parent on rides now.
I love fettling my bike but don't have the time because Baby Kip wants me as soon as I start to do anything focussed away from her (even if she's been playing happily prior to that!!)
What holds back women in biking is often their guilt at taking time for themselves away from their family. They often feel they should be the main care-giver and, as Dad is often works long hours as the main wage earner, feel Dad deserves the time-out more than they do. I'm lucky that Mr Kip is massively supportive and lets me have as much time as I want, but TBH I don't want to take the p*ss as he deserves the break as much as me. We compromise and as such get out maybe once a week if we're lucky.
I love riding my bike for the fun, the dirt, the exercise and the social side of riding with men and women.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Actually, the mtb demographic IS middle-class white males.
I bet there are a lot more people who just go to the pub for a drink than folk who go to the golf course just to play golf.
ENOUGH! Let's just chill and ride? (irrespective of gender)
My ex came from Wales, he was very keen on golf (and good at it) - he never played a single stroke here (home counties) because he just couldn't get his head around the social climbing aspect of it.
Posted 11 months ago # -
That is rather sad KoF because I played fairly regularly round your area and I can safely say that there wasn't a single person I played with who viewed it as a social climbing activity. You are confusing the average player with the nob-ends who see membership of a prestigious club in the same way as they would having the 'right' car or living in the 'right' postcode.
Spot-on re what you say on getting out and riding regardless of gender/race/colour but equally I would recommend golf to any youngster as an outdoor pastime which you can enjoy for most of your life.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Look, life is short, don't give the men/women thing any energy, just go and ride yer bike, I don't give a shit about whether the PEOPLE I ride with are men or women (or black/white/yellow/brown/fat/thin/tall/short/hairy/bald/rich/poor)
Kind of agree and disagree with this. Mountain bikers on the whole just want to get out and ride bikes. Fine but in the grand scheme of things it is does result in it being seen as a white middle class male thing. Not good in a tick box society as it puts mountain biking low down the pecking order. If no one is trying to change that point of view the whole sport gets marginalised because its actually seen as being mainstream.
People are short of time so we need to grab our riding when we can but if that local loop gets sanitised because of a perception not doing it only really helps white middle class males then it doesnt really do anything for people who mountain bike.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Woody: the firm I work for, do we have mountainbiking days? No, we do not. Do we have golf days? Yes, we do. Do we have golf tournaments with potential/important clients? Yes, we do. Do we make/cement lots of contacts on the golf course? Yes, we do. Are lots of our clients fellow golf club members? Oh, yes, they are.*
soon to be hampered by the Bribery Act which comes in on Friday, certain ammunition for the companies that don't play golf
Posted 11 months ago # -
The chicks I ride with think it's a mark of respect when we call them "dude" (it is)
They don't like it when other guys on the trails call them "mate" by accident (usually they haven't clocked their Sombrio gloves)
As for the race issue, well I once saw a ski resort promotion cartoon featuring some African American skiers, it just didn't ring true...
Some blokes are idiots on bikes
I suggest if you're not being an idiot on your bike some of the time you're taking it too seriouslly (regardless of gender)
Posted 11 months ago # -
Some blokes are idiots on bikes and very intolerant and so are some women.[quote]
I suggest if you're not being an idiot on your bike some of the time you're taking it too seriouslly (regardless of gender)
[/quote]Some blokes are idiots on bikes and very amusing and so are some women.... whatever
Posted 11 months ago # -
Despite my moderate-ish post on page three of this spiraling load of flim flam, my on trail attitude is rather the same as Karinofnine's.
I don't care who I ride with as long as they can keep up, since the slow/beginners ruin a ride by introducing too much waiting and curtailing the kind of trails that can be ridden. I've got no interest in bringing more people into mtbing - there are too many on the trails already.
Similarly, I expect to be left behind if I ride with a group with skills and fitness beyond my own.
I think there are loads of riders with that kind of selfish attitude - at the end of the day, I ride for me, because I like to. I'm not rude, I'm cheerful and jokey, but I can understand how my general attitude could be seen as having the potential to alienate people that might possibly get into mtbing. Thats just tough, its not really my problem, and I'm not sure its even an issue.
If you want to do something, you will. More blokes than women want to ride mtb. More whites than ethic minorities want to get into mtb. I don't really get why mtb is somehow damaged or not 'complete' because some kinds of people don't want to do it. Is it just 'all-inclusive hand wringing?'
Posted 11 months ago # -
Sport = competition
Womens competition = sideshowSorry but it's true!
Posted 11 months ago # -
Scienceofficer and GW - thanks for reminding me of why I generally don't particulary like the mtb'ing world any more, and why I do more mountaineering / climbing etc where such attitudes don't exist (yes, people in those activities want to push themselves to their limits at beyond, but they're also keen to encourage and help others, and would never, ever leave anyone behind in the mountains - in fact that would be considered to be not only selfish but utterly incompetent behaviour).
But before you just bracket me into the 'sour grapes / uptight female' category, lets try another example that illustrates why I think both your attitudes suck:
My brother was born with profound and multiple disabilities - the list of details would take far to long, but surfice to say he has very limited physical ability (including things such as deformed skeletal structure, lack of co-ordiantion and balance etc). However, he's also the person who's taught me the most about real courage, effort, overcoming a huge amount of pain (after a lifetime of continuous operations) and positivity. We've always just mucked in together and helped out, at times literally carrying him up mountains between us so he can join in, and then a while ago he wanted to try cycling. Now if we all had the attitude of Scienceofficer, it would have been 'tough' - you can't keep up, and frankly we don't want you cluttering up the 'supposedly' already busy trails. Fortunately thanks to lots of support and help from volunteers and us as his family, he now cycles loads, and a couple of years ago took part in the Special Olympics and won a gold medal in the cycling Time Trial - but then for GW that would propably just be even more of a 'sideshow'.
So for me it's not 'all-inclusive hand-wringing' - its about having basic human decency to help others where and when you can (and yes, within that's there's still plenty of time and opportunity to do you own thing and push yourself to you own limits). Biking with my brother is a real laugh - it might take 3 of us just to get him upright on the back of a tandem, but after that he's as competative as any other guy and is well up for riding the rough stuff!
Posted 11 months ago # -
Sport = competition
Womens competition = sideshowSorry but it's true!
really? the women racing our series proportionally show more skill and technique than the blokes, riding stuff that has half the blokes walking down
it's only a sideshow if you treat it as such, we don't, our sponsors don't, others shouldn't
Posted 11 months ago # -
Why should people, who are mtb'ers, care about the demographic of mtb'ers? I don't understand??
Posted 11 months ago # -
Sue you make fair and valid points. I posted my comments in full awareness that they would attract some criticism.
I think using such a polarised example is a bit disingenuous, since its rather outside the typical 'getting into mtb example' An outlier if you will.
If my brother was equally disabled, I too, would be going the extra mile to include him - Thats the strength of familial ties, and is indeed time and effort gladly given, but I would still be riding with people more competent to get the fix I need.
But you won't find me looking around to drag people into an activity they have no interest in.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Oh, you mis-interpret me - I won't leave anyone in the hills either - I won't ride with them more often than not. But if there is a mismatch in skill/fitness that become apparent on a ride, I'll hang about. If they ask for help or pointers I'm happy to offer advice on the little I know, but I won't be forcing anything on them.
Fortunately, I'm pretty average, thus, I'm fairly similar to loads of people and will happily ride with most.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Scienceofficer - you're right I did deliberately use a very different example as I wanted to try and break the view that this is just about women, but that attitudes about not wanting to include those who aren't 'good enough' affect many people, including those with disabilities.
I don't think I mis-interpreted you, especially this part:
"I don't care who I ride with as long as they can keep up, since the slow/beginners ruin a ride by introducing too much waiting and curtailing the kind of trails that can be ridden. I've got no interest in bringing more people into mtbing - there are too many on the trails already.
Similarly, I expect to be left behind if I ride with a group with skills and fitness beyond my own."
A few points that maybe you will consider to be more relevant, and less 'disingenuous'
- one of the frequent comments I hear from women is that they don't go out with local clubs becuase they are worried about holding them up / being too slow / ruining someone's ride. I think that it is something of a shame that people don't join in becuase they don't feel that they are good enough. And how many people then don't progress in their riding, or drop out altogether, becuase they don't have access to the social side of riding? Incidently, many of these women are actually reasonable riders, but I guess if they've heard someone making comments like yours, then they certainly wouldn't want to chance it. Personally, I get a buzz out of riding with someone who's newer to biking - it's great to see them grinning and enjoying themselves no matter how slow or easy the ride.
- what about people who are injured or develop an illness or condition that could affect their riding? Should they then not ride with others any more cos they'll hold them up? there are many examples of people on this forum who are in that position. A while ago I put forward a suggestion on another biking forum (interestingly one that is mainly frequented by women), for post-injury / easy / social rides - they've become pretty popular for a wide range of riders
- also your phrase 'similarly I would expect to be left behind' does imply that you find it perfectly acceptable to be 'dropped', or similarly to 'drop others' from a group ride if they are not keeping up. How dangerous can that be? As an example a few years ago I had post viral fatigue - I didn't know at that point as it hadn't diagnosed, but the people who I was riding with knew that I'd been ill. we got half way roudn the ride, high in the mountains and I couldn't keep up any more. They left me to find my own way down, whilst they went off on the rest of the ride. at the time I thought that was perfectly acceptable, as I didn't want to 'ruin their ride' but talking to some mountaineering friends afterwards I found they were completely shocked. (oh and incidently one of those people was my long-term partner at that point, who was a perfect example of the 'if you're not good enough I don't want to ride with you at any point' brigade).
Posted 11 months ago # -
Sport = competition
Womens competition = sideshow
Sorry but it's true!I thought we'd already established that on the whole, most of us are partaking in mountain biking not as s sport, but as a pastime, or hobby if you will?
Competition doesn't come into it for the vast majority of us, except for with ourselves. I'll push myself to go faster over a bit of trail than before (sometimes, not all the time certainly) but couldn't care less how I shape up compared to anyone else.
As for women's sport being a sideshow... I don't care about the sex of the individuals competing, but of their ability to impress or entertain me when I'm watching sport. Men are always going to have an edge, it's in our physiology, but in every sport I've watched with wowen competing in recently I haven't failed to be impressed. The number of girls lapping ridiculously quickly at Mayhem the other weekend was impressive. I watched a days play of the ladies Ashes cricket last summer (sadly I was one of only about 20 people there watching!), both teams were seriously good. And I don't mean "good for girls", but the level of cricket being played was excellent to watch. And then there's women's football. Now I'm no football fan, cos the game has been spoilt by money, corruption, and overpaid halfwits putting on a song and dance all the time. Watching the pro females playing it is quite refreshing, they don't dive around half as much, they focus much more on the skills used and as such I think it's a better game to watch.
And then there's tennis. Ok it's impressive watching the guys bang a few 140mph serves in, but often the girls have much longer rallies.
Oh, and happily* single ... probably due to not being a proper girl and going out biking rather than shopping, plus being a bit of a research spod ... I suspect neither are considered particularly sexy by the majority of guys!
You've been meeting the wrong guys Sue!
Posted 11 months ago # -
Interesting points with a marked difference in focus from my feelings on the topic.
I do think its acceptable to both drop and be dropped and gender has nothing to do with it. This is not without limit though, as I've said, I will hang about with slower riders if it happens - I just try to avoid it happening in the first place. Similarly, I wouldn't have been happy to let you come off the hill by yourself if you had bonked/blown. Thats just irresponsible. On the last STW ride in my area, I was actually the sweeper for most of it.
For me, there is little social aspect beyond the ride and I've managed to continue riding perfectly well without turning into some kind of wilting flower that needs propping up by other people - I've never been a member of any club and have hardly ridden in groups of more than 5 - I find it too stop-starty and a bit 'coach party'. This was the same when I was a new rider too. Occasionally we have a pint afterwards, but of those I ride with, we'd all actually rather ride for longer, rather than talk about it over a pint.
Although I've never been interested in them, surely clubs are the prime entry point for beginners? Most of those I've seen seem to cater for all abilities, or so they claim. Personally, I have no interest coaching people. I get a buzz out of riding, being outdoors and a sense of personal achievement on terrain that ones not sure one can get a bike over.
If I became ill, slower or less fit, I'd not expect any of the guys to ride slower just for my sake - why should they? They're riding for their own objectives and reasons, not mine. I would expect to help myself by finding a slower group of riders, or ride solo. I've done both before.
I have a suspicion that we're not going to reach consensus on this particular topic. We seem to be opposite faces of the coin.
Posted 11 months ago # -
double post. Sorry.
Posted 11 months ago # -
As an example a few years ago I had post viral fatigue - I didn't know at that point as it hadn't diagnosed, but the people who I was riding with knew that I'd been ill. we got half way roudn the ride, high in the mountains and I couldn't keep up any more. They left me to find my own way down, whilst they went off on the rest of the ride.
Shocking behaviour on any level!
I've had CFS twice now (kinda getting over it right now too), its a total shit cos often you feel perfectly ok and then suddenly it can just stop proceedings dead. Leaving someone in the mountains on their own though... I've had people try to insist i left then to their own devices when it was clear they were holding me up, it doesn't matter, I can go ona faster ride another day, people's safety is paramount!
Posted 11 months ago # -
Scienceofficer - no I suspect that we're not going to see eye to eye on this, but in a way that's kind of OK - the world would be a very boring place if we all agreed (of course, it would obviously be better if you agreed with me!). Good on you though for having a reasonable debate, and I can see what you're saying. I was going to say that I would have preferred it if you hadn't been quite so patronising (and if you met me I suspect 'wilting flower' might be the last phrase you'd use!), but given that I was somewhat rude and said 'your attitude sucks' I suspect I can't really complain
mboy - yup PVS / CFS is a tough one - glad that I'm over it now but it did take a really long time. A lot of 'friends' faded away when I had it cos I could no longer get out at the same level, but interesting some of the best riders I know stayed in touch and we'd head off on rides together - I guess that's the difference between 'friends who ride' and 'not-friends who ride'
Posted 11 months ago # -
I wasn't referring to you when I said 'wilting flower' I meant it as a generic term to describe a certain type of person. Apologies if you though it was aimed at you.
There are plenty who think my attitude sucks, but this is the internet and I'm a big boy now.
Posted 11 months ago #
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