Are you the next dialled Mike?

chiefgrooveguru – Member

I’m pretty certain that any design which manages 100% antisquat with zero pedal kickback will feel the same when pedalling through the rough as no antisquat, bar the reduced bobbing of the former. Anti-squat doesn’t lock suspension up, it balances out forces to remove unwanted motion. The way you perceive the negative effect of antisquat is through kickback

I don’t think this is true- I’m perceiving the negative impact of antisquat as changes in suspension reaction (not locking out, just reacting less well when there’s also force coming through the pedals/chain). Kickback in itself doesn’t bother me, it’s easy to filter out/adapt to. I got a chance to speak to a couple of pro racers with the same bike as me and they considered it an acceptable compromise for better pedalling, which I can definitely understand- It’s totally possible it made me faster but I’m not a pro so I couldn’t care less.

I don’t think the bike has any way of distinguishing between me pushing it down (bob) and the ground pushing it up. I’ve not ridden any idler bikes so perhaps that changes it but for normal bikes I’m pretty comfortable that this is the case.

TBH chiefgrooveguru, you do seem to know what your’e talking about, I don’t.
Manufacturers are going to make what will sell. Lots of single pivot bikes sell, as do multi’s. Also, as I’ve said in loads of other threads, ‘It’s a matter of taste’. So some people like one or the other, some people like both, some people can just ride a bike without being that bothered! Some people wouldn’t have an Orange no matter how many pivots it had!

Northwind – Member 

chiefgrooveguru – Member

I’m pretty certain that any design which manages 100% antisquat with zero pedal kickback will feel the same when pedalling through the rough as no antisquat, bar the reduced bobbing of the former. Anti-squat doesn’t lock suspension up, it balances out forces to remove unwanted motion. The way you perceive the negative effect of antisquat is through kickback

I don’t think this is true- I’m perceiving the negative impact of antisquat as changes in suspension reaction (not locking out, just reacting less well when there’s also force coming through the pedals/chain). Kickback in itself doesn’t bother me, it’s easy to filter out/adapt to. I got a chance to speak to a couple of pro racers with the same bike as me and they considered it an acceptable compromise for better pedalling, which I can definitely understand- It’s totally possible it made me faster but I’m not a pro so I couldn’t care less.
I don’t think the bike has any way of distinguishing between me pushing it down (bob) and the ground pushing it up. I’ve not ridden any idler bikes so perhaps that changes it but for normal bikes I’m pretty comfortable that this is the case.

I think you need to read up on anti-squat, what it does and how – you are referring to suspension ‘locking out’ and cant see the difference between bump input and the movement of the riders mass causing a suspension reaction so you are pretty far off the mark, also 100% anti squat is not considered high, I’m not sure if this figure is throwing you off maybe?

You will notice Norco have moved to an idler / high pivot system as Sam did not like the higher anti squat design used on the previous DH bike so experimented with an idler to reduce it, by moving to the idler / high pivot system they now have likely similar anti squat as the previous bike (due to the higher com of of the high pivot) but pedal feedback is now isolated, win win.

I also challenge you to find a very high or very low anti-squat modern bike, literally all manufacturers aim for at least 100% at sag, that Alpine you used as an example has 140% anti squat at 50mm of travel, it actually gets higher further into the stroke….. DW link bikes are very nice in this regard as I say having 100% until 3/4 of the bikes travel then dropping steeply to remove pedal feedback on hard hits.

essel I do think a lot of riders avoid Orange because they’ve bought into the multipivot propaganda from almost all the other brands! Thankfully they don’t seem to have a problem selling enough bikes to remain profitable and you do see a lot of them around the UK – particularly Llandegla! A rider I loosely know recently changed his white Orange for an orange Whyte, which was confusing… 😉

Northwind – you may be right but I think you were comparing the Trailfox and Remedy 29 from a similar era and they have near identical antisquat figures at sag.

The weird thing about antisquat calculations is they’re not based on you stomping on the pedals and the reaction to that causing bob, they’re based on you sitting on the saddle and the bike accelerating when you push a pedal down and then decelerating in the dead spot before you push the other pedal.

100% antisquat will barely bob at all if your CoG is at the same height as that of the model and you’re sitting down pedalling in a nice balanced fashion. Taller or shorter, or different distribution of mass and it changes – stand and stomp and it goes haywire. But when you’re used to bike you know where to stand when stomping (get lower and more forward and the back bobs less) etc. And the fork sag changes things especially if it starts bobbing too.

Some downhill bikes have huge amounts of antisquat at sag so they sprint well out of the gate when you’re standing and powering and then it falls away fast for hitting the rough. And some had a moderate amount which barely changes through the travel. And some have none!

I think you need to read other people’s posts a bit more carefully tbh, you said “I think you need to read up on anti-squat, what it does and how – you are referring to suspension ‘locking out'” but I said exactly the opposite “Anti-squat doesn’t lock suspension up”

(you’ve actually done it twice on this page, saying “it doesn’t lock up” as if refuting someone else’s point, but nobody’s said it does)

I’ve also never referred to 100% anti-squat or whether it’s high or low, so I’ve no idea where that comment comes from.

It just seems like the brake-jack comments, you seem to be looking for ways to dismiss other people’s experiences rather than actually engaging with what they’re saying.

chiefgrooveguru – Member

Northwind – you may be right but I think you were comparing the Trailfox and Remedy 29 from a similar era and they have near identical antisquat figures at sag.

Yup, and imo that kind of proves the point- what counts is how they ride not how they graph. Throw in the Remedy’s clever shock and the 2 bikes ride very differently- to the point i ditched the geometry of the BMC, which I much preferred, to get the fantastic suspension of the Trek. If I could have welded the two together I would. Every so often the Remedy throws a slightly wobbly- landing while pedalling makes it choke and make horrible noises- but it’s an exception.

(the Trailfox numbers in Linkage have the rear travel wrong at 140mm btw, so that might skew it if it’s working from the same model, I can’t remember)

TBH chiefgrooveguru, you do seem to know what your’e talking about, I don’t

Quick Alex sell this man some bass cabs!

Just ride what you like. A decent shock is more important on some designs than others and transforms bikes.

In fact I would buy a lower priced frame and a higher priced shock than the other way around.

Most really fast guys I know (chief will admit he doesn’t fall in this category) don’t care about their frame much. They do get their suspension tuned though!

Just ride what you like. A decent shock is more important on some designs than others and transforms bikes.

In fact I would buy a lower priced frame and a higher priced shock than the other way around.

I’d always prioritise great geometry (which seems to be independent of price bar the very cheapest bikes) and good suspension. And all the other stuff matters way less to me, especially carbon bits and bling. Cane Creek DBair on now my four year old alloy frame remains brilliant!

Most really fast guys I know (chief will admit he doesn’t fall in this category) don’t care about their frame much. They do get their suspension tuned though!

Indeed. Even at my very best I struggle to attain moderately fast! 😉