Nadolig Hapus indeed! Some snow would make it easy for some practice in North Wales anyway.

Apologies for resurrecting this year-old thread now, but I never did do the course in the end.
I am keen to do one soon though and would prefer getting some winter experience in the Lakes or N Wales preferably.
Just reading through the replies again – lots of votes for Glenmore Lodge in the Cairngorms.
TBH I think I will realistically be doing non-technical Lakes walks – the sort of walks I’d do in the summer but with some white stuff down. They’ll probably be the likes of Bowfell, Gable, Helvellyn (prob not by edges either), the Langdale Pikes and some walks over Grasmoor/Coledale way. I doubt very much that I’ll be doing unknown routes for the first time in the winter.
I don’t want to turn into a full-on mountaineer – I just want to walk in the snow in relative safety using axe (North Ridge Pinnacle) and North Ridge crampons…obviously there are techniques involved and I’d like to learn/practice these so I’m not a complete numpty when kitting up in a real situation for the first time.

Does anyone know whether there’s any snow about in N Wales/Lakes now out of interest? Cheers

Weatherline gives a report from the fells (Helvellyn summit) pretty much every day thru the winter. A ranger walks up to the summit every day and does a report. If there’s no snow on the East face, then there’ll likely be no snow anywhere in the lakes.

I think if you need to carry axe and wear crampons, you need some form of training, even if it’s just some time with your local mountaineering club where you can learn the basic techniques, the rest will come with experience.
I was in the Cairngorms recently and even the low level stuff could be dicey.
Brush up on your navigation too as paths disappear.

Don’t know if you spotted it, Swirrel Edge on 29th

OP I don’t know your age but if under 30 you are eligible for a subsidised winter course

COURSES

And yes training is essential even for basic walking. Avalanche is a real risk no matter what the technicality of your route, and is not something you can learn to assess from a book. No substitute for looking at slopes and digging snow pits with an experienced friend or instructor.

I read up on the Swirral Edge accident after my last post – sobering stuff.
Sideshow – unfortunately I don’t qualify as I missed out by being a 70’s child 😉

It wouldn’t surprise me if as many people fall tripping over their crampons, as do walking in totally inappropriate footwear. I always take the John Wayne approach, but it’s so easy to trip when you get over confident or lazy.

I still think you need your training in Scotland. Otherwise you risk training without snow

I went twice with this centre

http://www.longrigg.org.uk/activities_mountaineering.html

I think its still run by my mate, the centre that is. I mention it as they do a bus from sedburgh for the winter skills course. You’ll have to e-mail and see if they still run it

Basically I think we got 5 days of really great walking with emphasis on skills on the first 2 days. But we still felt we’d had a walk on the skills days. later in the weak we were grouped by ability/ambition.

Rascal, maybe slightly better would be to use the Met Office website. They have a mountain weather section for lakes, you get the same Ranger current observations from Helvellyn (click on ‘ground conditions’) and you can look at the forecasts for the next few days (which is just as important as current observations).
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/public/weather/mountain-forecasts/lake-district#?tab=mountainWeather

Rascal, While it is possible to be dangerously unskilled for a hazardous environment, it is quite difficult to be over-skilled.
For your intended targets, I’d strongly recommend the Glenmore winter skills courses. You will learn reliable navigational skills as well as practical skills like how not to descend on your crampons. Trips on crampons account for one or two folk every winter in the Highlands. Lakeland high ground can be a harsh place to be on a dark and stormy night after a day out has gone a bit wrong.
Best of all, you’ll have a ball on one of these courses and get to walk into some places that you wouldn’t normally expect to find yourself. If you think of a course as a short break, then it’s pretty good value.

I’ve not read the whole post but BMC are offering subsidised winter skills courses at PYB at the moment, prices seem reasonable: https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-subsidised-outdoor-training-courses-at-pyb-plas-y-brenin

I have also been considering the same as have recently purchased some winter kit. As it happens I was in Fort William last week and managed to summit Ben Nevis on Boxing Day under perfect conditions. The walk in was clear, but the zig-zag path was under snow and ice. Although we saw people walking up without crampons, most had ice axes, and I felt a lot more confident in mine.

The biggest issue for me was navigation though, at times visibility was close to zero, and we were heavily reliant on GPS. I was aware of the hazards on the summit, namely the path crossing close to the gully heads, but fortunately we were able to make it unscathed. I would be nervous in heavy snow though, as retracing the route up would have been very difficult.

I’d never put anyone off training but I’d like to offer two contrary views…
1) people have been managing quite well in the mountains before training was invented. I started winter mountaineering when I was 16 with a friend marginally more experienced. We read up, we talked to people, we bought some gear and did some reasonable standard winter routes. Nobody died.
2) you can always improve your navigation. I was doing the nav leg for our fell relays team, ie one of the best in the club. I’m a rubbish navigator. You can always improve.
Hills are there to be enjoyed and respected, but not feared. There are tons of online resources for weather, conditions, webcams, etc, so there’s no reason to be uninformed.

Nobody died.

Nobody, or just neither you or your mate.

Clearly some people did die, but no, not me nor my mates. Are you saying nobody should venture into the hills without formal training? Bearing in mind our friend’s stated ambitions up there.

Trouble with tinternet advice is it goes one of two ways. Either, ‘yeah you have a go mate, what could possibly go wrong’ or ‘nah, it’s lethal mate. You’re certain to croak’.

Problem is, we don’t know the blokes capabilities or capacity/appetite for risk. Like someone up there ^, I bought/borrowed some books, bought some gear then waddled off… 30 years later, I’m still around and still active. It could have been very different tho… Don’t forget, a course isn’t a panacea…. It was last winter Glenmore Lodge had their first fatality……during a winter skills course :-/

I’d still go the Club route assuming you have ready access to a decent MC. Not everyone is like ‘Paul’.

people have been managing quite well in the mountains before training was invented. I started winter mountaineering when I was 16 with a friend marginally more experienced. We read up, we talked to people, we bought some gear and did some reasonable standard winter routes. Nobody died.

I was going to post something similar. The obsession with doing a course for everything nowadays is a bit sad.

Glenmore Lodge; great place, great people, great fun and very educational.

stever I’m with you on this, formal training is not needed. As you said yourself you read up on your stuff, talked to people and your mate was more experienced. So you did have a bit of training, it just wasn’t formal. I gained much of my alpine experience in the same way.

On the other hand, some stuff can’t really be learned any way except hands on and I think assessing snow conditions is one of those things. Get someone who knows their stuff to show you I’d say – if none of your mates fall into this category then a professional instructor might be the way forward. Sure, you can argue for skipping this step – I’m sure many walkers have had happy trips in blissful ignorance of the risks – and conversely many people with formal training have died. But given the stakes involved, I’d suggest skimping on winter training, whether formal or not, isn’t a worthwhile risk to take.

Been venturing up in the winter mountains for years with crampons, ice axe etc. Have done Crib Coch and Aonach Egach and several other ridge walks or scrambles with other self taught friends in full winter conditions (loads of snow and ice) without any specific training and it’s never been a problem.

However, did a winter skills course 3 years ago (private guide in Scotland) followed by some winter climbing and learnt an awful lot.

The fact that we already had self taught winter mountain experience certainly helped with the course as we already had experience of prior mountain situations relevant to the skills we were learning (rather than coming to winter mountains for the very first time as lots of people seem to do).

I’d recommend rather than waiting until a course is booked, just get yourself up in the mountains when it next snows and see how you get on. Choose an easy route that you’re familiar with and you’ll have a great time. Find a snow bank with good run out and practice some ice axe arrests with guidance from a winter skills book). Get used to walking in crampons on easy terrain (John Wayne style).

Treat it with common sense and respect, take a headtorch and emergency shelter, warm food and clothes, and make an early start (no lie in). Confidence will soon come, you’ll learn quickly from any small mistakes, and when you do sign up to a course (which is highly recommended) you’ll get all the more out of it because you have had a little bit of your own prior experience to relate things to.

I was going to post something similar. The obsession with doing a course for everything nowadays is a bit sad.

It’s not sad, it’s just different from what you do.

Doing a course to introduce you to a new activity allows you to avoid some of the common pitfalls. Cocking something up whilst learning in the hills in winter can be painful or fatal. For that reason doing a course makes eminent sense.

I was going to post something similar. The obsession with doing a course for everything nowadays is a bit sad.

As I said on page1 12 months ago, my only experience of being involved in a full on rescue (with Heli) was of someone fresh off a course, full of self belief and his newly learnt skills.
I’m completely self taugh, but I think courses are a good thing as you can be taught the basics in a week or two, basics that self taught might take a season or two. They are no substitute for experience tho, it also depends on your starting point, I don’t see why an experienced hill walker can’t step up to the next level without a course.

Much of Blackshaw is still valid. I would say that with a bit of common sense you need no training but that depends on you. If you have good hill sense and can navigate in bugger all visibility in any weather you will get on fine.
Hang on doesn’t that sound just like an old fashioned club apprenticeship?
More to the point there is so much info out there on the web that you can soon gather the basics. The only thing different about winter walking is dealing with snow conditions, how not to trip over your crampons and axe braking. all that is easily gained playing some where high and gentle.
The navigation is a different thing and I would assume that that exists before trying to play further.
A course may be the thing that your temperament likes, if so the best will be the Lodge but don’t let that stop you going out.
You learn best from being with experts. I did an OE degree at Bangor Normal college. Years under the watchful eye of the chairman of the international guides association worked wonders. (Dave Brailsfords dad)

Good old Alan Blackshaw!!!! My bible as a kid.

Crikey I missed the latest Swirral mishap (brown cove, isn’t that on the other side if the mountain).

In good conditions the lakes offers easy access to loads of fun winter sport. I used to mess about on Red Screes above Kirsktone with mates. Lots of small easy challenges, a very easy gully (kilnshaw chimney) to get beginners in the mood and a great slope off the summit to practice glissading and self-arrest. All within a few mins of the car!!! Then move on to Fairfield etc and the E face of Helvellyn (N Cove, both ridges, gullies 1 and 2 on E face etc). Pinnacle ridge on st Sunday can be sporty in the winter!!!

Swirral seems to catch more people out that Striding in winter and I always find it trickier and steeper under ice. Needs proper respect and equipment.

Blencathra, Langdale and all the normal classics are great fun under snow and bring lots of different challenges. Then there are fun outing alike the ghylls around Crinkle Crags before the gullies in Great End or various routes on Bowfell.

Take care out there though. People respect Scottish mountains well but can easily underestimate the lakes. I know Helvellyn well but have still walked downhill for 15 minutes instead of uphill toward the tarn in a winter whiteout. Taught me a lesson about over-confidence and winter navigation. Fortunately only through being embarrassed in front of Uni mates!!!

Oops 😳 there ARE two brown coves!!! Don’t trust me on Helvellyn!!!! Brown Cove crags on the NW side has a fun scramble which is what I was thinking of!!!

chairman of the international guides association worked wonders. (Dave Brailsfords dad)

I never knew that! I knew John Brailsford was a keen cyclist but never put the 2 together.

The Alpine Club guide to the Ecrins quickly became known to us as ‘Brailsford’s book of lies and misinformation’. It contains such detailed route descriptions as “Climb a rounded whales back for 1000m”

Still, it encouraged you to rely on your own route finding skills.

I was going to post something similar. The obsession with doing a course for everything nowadays is a bit sad.

The advantage of doing a course at one of the National Mountain Centres is that you get the very best skills passed to you from some of best climbers around (all UIAGM Guides). The problem with learning from mates is that most of them don’t really know what they’re doing, but just don’t get caught out in really foul conditions which is where all the skills really matter.

For instance, lots of people know how to take a bearing on a map and some even know how to correct from magnetic North and that’s fine 99% of the time. But when you are tired, hungry, stuck in a white out and being buffeted by 80 mph winds, you need a more robust approach to taking bearings, and Glenmore Lodge would teach you a 7 step approach designed to minimise the risk of making a mistake through fatigue. e.g.

Step 1 Estimate Bearing,
Step 2 Take a bearing with compass (the two step approach minimised things like having the map upside down, which when you’re being hammered by wind is not that hard to do).
Step 3 Measure the distance of the leg,
Step 4 Estimate the time to walk the leg,
Step 5 Read the contours (up, down, traverse),
Step 6 Make a note of any features you might see,
Step 7 Make a mental note of risks, e.g. nearby cliffs.

It comes across as a lot of work for each leg, but once you get in the habit it’s very quick and gives you lots of backups to try and reduce the chance of getting lost e.g. you have a guesstimate and a measured bearing as a self check. You have time and distance, which you pace, to double check the length of the leg. The note of the contours is a third check on the bearing, if you expected to be traversing, but suddenly find yourself descending on the right bearing, something is wrong, etc etc.

I very much doubt most mates will teach you the above.

NB I used to teach students Winter Mountaineering in the Cairngorms many years ago.

at one of the National Mountain Centres is that you get the very best skills passed to you from some of best climbers around (all UIAGM Guides).

Sorry to nit pick but very few of the instructors working at the Lodge are UIAGM guides. I can’t speak from experience about PyB but I’d imagine it’s the same. Most (depending on the courses they work) will hold the MIC and it’s a more relevant award to the work they do.

I did my MLC summer (Lakes) & winter (Glenmore Lodge) in the early 70s. Like many others we started winter climbing with mates. However, I went on various winter courses during that decade & learned a lot.
My Lodge course had John Cunningham, Allan Fyffe, Bill March, Duncan Ross and Roger O’Donovan instructing/assessing. All top winter climbers of the day. Apart from Allan Fyffe all have since died.
Also climbed with Kenny Spence & Mick Tighe in Glencoe.
These guys took us out of our comfort zone & we gained invaluable experience.

The Alpine Club guide to the Ecrins quickly became known to us as ‘Brailsford’s book of lies and misinformation’. It contains such detailed route descriptions as “Climb a rounded whales back for 1000m”

This has just reminded me of a old STW thread, took a bit of finding tho, the stw search is rubbish
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/mountaineering-in-the-ecrins

Sorry to nit pick but very few of the instructors working at the Lodge are UIAGM guides.

Poss it may have changed but when I did my Summer/Winter ML and MIC they were all Guides, bar the interns who were all aspirant guides. Mind you, this was 20 odd years ago.

Can’t speak for 20 years ago but lots of the staff have been MIC’s for a good while.