Ok, winter bimbling up hills on foot.

Just bought my first crampons and I need to go to school so I use them properly.
Keen on getting some basic winter skills under my belt such as crampon and ice axe techniques etc.
Going to get myself a nice axe too – a non-techy one like a Grivel Munro unless someone can suggest otherwise.

So many courses to choose from, its hard to pick one. I know of Plas Y Brenin in Capel Curig, but it ain’t cheap. N Wales but ideally the Lakes.
Looking at early next year when there’s hopefully going to be some snow – useful 😉

What can you recommend that’s reasonably priced?

Cheers

I’ve done loads of courses over the years.

I can highly recommend Glenmore Lodge for Winter Skills courses. Plas-y-Brenin relocate to Glencoe (or used to) for their winter season.

I did Winter skills with Glenmore Lodge and Winter Mountain Leader with PyB – both were excellent.

Edit: Value for money wise you won’t beat Glenmore Lodge or PyB as they’re both National Training Centres of Excellence, so part funded by the tax payer. My Winter skils week was something like £230 for 6 days on the hills inc food and accommodation – but it was quite a few years ago….

They don’t let people out on unbranded crampons …. Liability and all that 😆

Weather wise, the Cairngorms is the most reliable place for snow in the Scotland, being furthest from the Atlantic, so if you’re worried about duff winters, they are the safest best. Mind you, the last few winters have been excellent after 6 years or so of rubbish mild ones.

Boblo – they’re not unbranded – they’re a crap brand 😉

Where are you based?

Another vote for Glenmore Lodge. You are most likely to get the proper conditions there.

If you’re looking to save a bit of money, ask if they have any assessment weekends coming up. They need “guinea pigs” so offer a day or two at reduced rates.

We did one at Plas Y Brenin last January and whilst the course was informative and taught by climbing ninjas, there was no snow.

Because of this we did all of our crampon work on a wooden crate outside the centre and on the second day just did a normal day in the hills. Admittedly the clag came in and vis was down to about 10ft so it had an element of winter weather thrown in but still not the real thing. Must admit I had a superb time and the bar and facilities were top notch but missing the vital element…..

If we go again we have said we will do a Glenmore Course,

Hope this helps a little,

All the best,

Lee.

We did one at Plas Y Brenin last January and whilst the course was informative and taught by climbing ninjas, there was no snow.

Sounds like they no longer decamp en-masse to Glencoe then. In which case, I’d just look at Glenmore Lodge.

Glenmore Lodge +1

Shameless plug for my pal’s outfit. 😳

http://www.cairngormadventureguides.co.uk/

Another +1 for Glenmore Lodge

Two more options:
http://www.petehillmic.com/
http://www.climbmts.co.uk/

I’d be prepared to travel for such a course. Good winter conditions aren’t particularly reliable anywhere in the UK.

http://www.stevenfallon.co.uk/guide-winter.html

Boblo – I’m nowhere near anything remotely pointy – the flatlands of Leicestershire….why do you ask?
Lots of recommendations for Glenmore Lodge and Brycey, your plug looks worthwhile.
Interestingly, none for the Lakes….

Went on the Brenin course a few years ago. Instructors were OK, but it was basically two days of marching up and down hills in the snow in ill-fitting boots, with a few hours of axe/crampon technique and ice axe arrrests thrown in for fun and an avalance lecture in the evening.

Because if you were close to anywhere it would make sense to consider that when choosing where to go. You could mebbies take a guide for a day or two as an option. If you had a chum or two it needn’t work out much more expensive than a public course. Scotland would be most reliable for conditions. Glenmore Lodge has a good rep as has PYB though Wales can be a bit variable. Another option, you could always join a club.

There are loads of great folk to go with.

I did mine with http://www.petehillmic.com/

He was diamond. Londoner with some great stories and banter. Damn fine mountaineer too. Brilliant fun learnt loads and did an immense amount of hill work and climbing (this was my focus and may not be yours

Axe choice is critical in my view especially if you fancy getting on steep ground. Get advice from the leader of the course you do. I dont believe axe lengths of greater than 50cm are neccessary but thats a whole different debate.

I’d do another course with Pete tomorrow if needed one. Sent the misses on one some years later and she loved it too.

Since then done a fair bit of climbing and seen loads of guides and groups in action. The lodge are great with the right instructor but this can be a lottery (mate did his MIA and part way through a lecture on care of the environment during a hill day the instructor threw his smoke to the floor and stubbed it with his boot…) Equally the avalanche course there is utterly brilliantly run with some ace instructors.

Take care to get an instructional course if this is what you want as there are loads of guides who’ll take you up some amazing places but not focus on passing the skills on too much. This is great if you want it but may not be your thing. For these days I’d say Smiler Cuthbertson is a top bloke and Alan Halewood is also really nice they both do courses too but seen them mainly out guiding (Alan also works for the Lodge and others in the winter)

Whatever, enjoy the mountains. I cannot get enough of winter mountaineering…

The course I did, back in the days of hob nail boots, was 6 days at Glenmore Lodge. Basically the same thing as this one.

If you want to be a confident winter walker, you need more than just a weekend as there is quite a lot to learn – using an axe and crampons is a very small part of it, navigation in a white out is probably the most important skill to master.

rascal

I’m in Mansfield so not so far apart.

Most years manage a couple of day drives to the Lakes and/or N Wales in January and 4-7 weekends some extended to Scotland from early Feb-April. I have rarely travelled and not had a winter day out.

Even done some in the Peak District this last few snowy winters…

Leicester’s not so bad a location!!

navigation in a white out is probably the most important skill to master.

This +lots

If you live in Leicestershire, almost as easy to go to the Alps. Just a thought. It’s not all Aguille Verte out there.

Axe choice is critical in my view especially if you fancy getting on steep ground.

Agreed. As an owner of a Grivel Munro, I’d recommend getting something else if possible. Ideally you want a grip on the shaft (ooh matron), which the Munro doesn’t have. Try a DMM Cirque.

Never done one, however like many posts before, Glenmore will have the most reliable conditions.

Before there was a bar?

My only experience of being involved in a full on rescue (with Heli) was of someone fresh off a course, full of self belief in his newly learnt skills.
If you have a good understanding of navigation, route choice, equipment required, then you can make the next step into winter walking, you just need to be sensible about it. It’s not a dark art.
Buy some good instruction manuals (you should do this anyway, instruction course or not), read up, make notes on the important stuff, go walking in the Lakes and find areas to practice snow craft.

Mountain Craft and Leadship is a must have for any mountain walker IMO, covers everything.

Also, I’d agree with Millcar on axe. Buy a mountaineering axe with a slightly more aggressive +ve curve than the Grivel Munro and 50cm shaft for average height person. Just as good for self arrest (the bite is perhaps a bit more aggressive), but will be better on steep ground. I’ve never understood why anyone would want a long shaft, you either hold it across your chest ready to self arrest or use it up slope.

Feel free to flame, but for ‘winter bimbling’ if you are already a competent summer walker with good naviagation then you probably don’t need a course.
As has been said, read some books on technique and then get out yourself and work up in terms of difficulty of your days.
Start on days with good weather and on routes you’ve done before without the snow and work up to wandering the Cairngorm plateau in a whiteout on the way to The Zeros.

I cant agree more about navigation. On the course I did we did this to death. Felt almost repetitive until you find yourselve ini some less than ideal conditions and just slightly off route. It all makes sense. Mistakes in Nav are the thing common to many MR call outs (look at the logs)

If you have the luxury of time and live in the right area I agree with Lizzz. Courses are expensive and the skills can be learnt from others but if you live miles away its a good way to look at the required skill set and practice them in an intense period.

I did a course and have never regretted it for a moment.

A club as suggested earlier would be another good way of doing the same thing but cheaper though??

Martin Morans book Scottish Mountains (I think!!) was a great help to me.

I’ve gone down the route of clubbing together with a mate and hiring a guide, albeit one that came highly recommended by another mate. This has the advantage of being much more flexible to what you want to do.

We ended up wanting to focus more on the climbing, so ended up doing Tower Ridge on day 3!

Does anybody go down the club route anymore.

Or have all those fat blokes called Paul wearing smelly tracksters in the pub put people off that route?

Another +1 for Glenmore although the course I did there was far to much snow, over a metre fell on the first night and we could not even make it up to the ski centre due to the avalanche risk.

Interesting, border between being competent winter bimbler and death is quite narrow. I’d always say do a course, or get out with others who have done one and can show you some basics. But, you’ll be relying on their ability to teach, so if you are worried, do a course. You’ll probably learn a lot more than you expect.

Did a course years ago before my first winter in the alps, was probably one of the best things I have done and opened my eyes. Was with Glenmore Lodge FWIW.

Planning a ski mountaineering trip over the next few years, so this year, planning a ski touring/randonee course in Feb. Probably go back to Glenmore.

Before there was a bar?

Yep, there wasn’t a bar when I first went there.

If you read the mountain rescue reports after each winter, you can see that the #1 cause of death, for climbers, is poor navigation – not falling when climbing. Back in the days of good winters, you would get 5-10 climbers fall down five finger gully on the Ben having breezed up some Grade 5 climb, then then strolled off a cliff for lack of attention / navigation skills.

Forget which make of axe / crampon, if there’s one thing you need to master it’s a map, compass, pacing and holding your nerve in a white out. I used to teach this to students, many years ago, I’d take them out in the Cairngorms on the Plateau, walk until they were all disorientated and actually scared shitless, then get them to navigate back pace by pace – it’s a skill which will save your life in winter more than an ice axe ever will.

The problem with the Alps is no one goes out in bad weather, whereas in Scotland, you walk / climb almost regardless of the weather (otherwise you’d never get out), so Scottish Winter walking is way tough than Alpine stuff (in terms of Navigation).

A great pair of books on the subject is Martin Moran’s ‘The Munros in Winter’ and ‘Scottish Winter Mountains’.

In terms of location for doing a course: Scotland would probably be a more useful experience because you’re far more likely to end up in a whiteout than Wales or Lakes (partly further south, partly lower mountains.)
Whiteouts are possibly the most intimidating environment you can be in + as Footflaps says, you’ll be out in one sooner rather than later if you take up winter walking, so better get prepared for it from the outset with a guide rather than finding yourself in one on your own.
My first winter trip was to Ben MacDui and at one point I swore there was a massive drop in front of me and couldn’t take a step forward until my mate walked off and showed me it was a flat plateau. Useful experience in the headgames of the winter environment, that…

Useful experience in the headgames of the winter environment, that…

There is a lot of headgames in winter navigation, also knowing what mistakes people make so you can avoid them. Eg Climbing in the Northern quarries in the Cairngorms, you top out, feel great for cleaning some gnarly mixed route, start walking back to the ski area following the top of the cliffs, pass Jacob’s Ladder on your left and next thing you know you’re standing by a Lake, with no Ski centre in site and it’s going dark….

Classic mistake, the ground slopes to the left and people are so busy chatting they don’t get out a compass and rather than walk North they turn 90 degrees, without knowing it, and walk down to Avon.

As my the instructor on my ML was fond of saying

“Navigation, navigation, navigation”

Add nasal tone to the voice

I didn’t recommend anything more than Langmuir as I wasn’t sure if there were better books out now.
I also have the Martin Moran Scottish Winter book and would recommend, the basics are just one bit tho, it goes into climbing. Where as, The Langmuir book very much concentrates on important basics.
Peter Cliff’s Mountain Navigation used to be the bible of navigation, not sure if there’s anything better these days.

Langmuir is good as a reference, but I like the narrative style of Martin Moran’s books plus he recounts mistakes he made and near missed he has, which puts it all in context i.e. even UIAGM Guides get lost occasionally and fall through cornices…..

Blackshaw is the way to go 🙂 I still have a copy, it’s like reading something from the Victorian era.

Thanks for all the replies folks.
Will read up in a few books first, then do a course – Scotland deffo seems the best bet for snow.

Nadolig Llawen