• This topic has 1,316 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 4 years ago by DanW.
Viewing 40 posts - 281 through 320 (of 1,317 total)
  • Which power meter – Stages or Power2Max?
  • The-Swedish-Chef
    Free Member

    Yeah that was my concern, however it seems, by looking at the pictures, that a number of cranks allow mounting on the drive side, thus placing the pod next to the chain ring and protecting it a bit more.

    njee20
    Free Member

    I’m not sure you have to worry much, it’s well on there, and very small/light. How often does something actually impact the back of your crank like that?

    Oh dear, I’d assumed that was some sort of mistake by road.cc. They really the UK distributor?

    Someone commented on the DCRainmaker update a few weeks ago that it was them, so I think it’s real, and very weird!

    whitestone
    Free Member

    But if you understand how it works surely you get why that’s impossible, and it’s not because the manufacturers want you to buy multiple units!

    With the way they’ve implemented it yes, it’s impossible but what I had in mind was an intermediate mount or cradle that was epoxied on to the crank and the active part of the unit securely fixed within that. Going from the installation images on DCRainmaker’s site the epoxy used to fix the unit in place doesn’t look like it’s placed in exact positions which match up to sensors within the unit so I’d guess that it isn’t measuring strain within the crank. If that’s the case then so long as it’s held firmly at a known location the method of securing it is not really relevant and they’ve chosen epoxy as the least damaging method (to the crank).

    njee20
    Free Member

    so I’d guess that it isn’t measuring strain within the crank

    What’s it measuring then? 😕

    whitestone
    Free Member

    That’s the thing – I don’t know. Typically strain gauges will measure between two known points which is why I mentioned about the epoxy not being in exact positions. With user installation the epoxy could be spread anywhere and potentially miss one or both of the sensor locations. It may be that the epoxy forms one end of the gauge and some part of the body of the device forms the other.

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    I’d assume that the strain gauges would measure the strain across the backing plate of the unit, and the important thing is for this to be adequately bonded to the crank arm. Must be a tricky thing to get right seeing as 4iiii are the first to make it an end user operation. Assume also they have an installation kit that they are confident in, though it does seem to be issues with the tools that are delaying shipping. I guess there will be a fair share of botched installs to deal with too.

    njee20
    Free Member

    If you look at the installation methodology the little ‘wing’ things are used by a tool to pull it hard against the crank arm for several hours, I’d hazard a guess that this will distribute the expoxy all over the back. You’re not just pressing it on by hand or anything.

    dirtyrider
    Free Member

    I think I’d like some form of backup too. I’d be a bit worried about stone strike on a mountain bike since the unit sits proud of the crank, not so much for it being knocked off but impact damage.

    nah, sits in the same place as my Stages, cannot say I’ve ever worried about a rock strike on that

    installation looks a faff, definitely going to be some botched installs

    TiRed
    Full Member

    Looks like a reasonable proposition. Might drive prices of other single-sided meters down – hello Vector.

    I’ve been playing with power, HR and the relationship between the two, based on British Cycling training zones. For my personal 20 minute threshold heart rate and power there is a pretty good relationship between zone boundaries:

    Power = 2.2 x HR – 100

    Of course this assumes steady-state efforts (unlike the Powercal) but is good enough for me to set the Heart Rate Zones in the Garmin so that the graph of Heart Rate can now tell me which power zone I’m in. Until Garmin add a Power graph, of course. Validity is up to Zone 5, as all out efforts are obviously off the scale, but you can feel that anyway.

    That HR graph is fantastic, I’ll show how I did it on another thread. If you haven’t discovered it yet, it will open up a whole new view of dynamic training – so much better than just telling you a number. And you’ll see HR change reasonably quickly after effort. Well mine does, YHRMV.

    Not mine but here is the graph showing zones. My display shows Instant HR, 30 second Power and Cadence (I ride fixed wheel so this is also related to speed and HR)

    njee20
    Free Member

    Which could be expensive!

    It seems a shame that you can’t have a sacrificial casing, but save the electronics, and have (say) a $50 replacement if you change cranks or whatever. I’d need to budget for a new chainset as well, as I don’t want to keep my 7800 cranks forever!

    whitestone
    Free Member

    It seems a shame that you can’t have a sacrificial casing, but save the electronics,

    Which is the point I was making above. Everything has a finite life but you’d expect what is essentially a solid state device to have a reasonable lifetime, certainly beyond that of a crank.

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    t seems a shame that you can’t have a sacrificial casing, but save the electronics, and have (say) a $50 replacement if you change cranks or whatever.

    Looking at ones who do this, the electronics seems to be the cheap bit. 50 quid for a replacement pedal pod for a Vector for example.

    Might drive prices of other single-sided meters down – hello Vector.

    540 quid at bike-discount.de (here). Getting there.

    whitestone
    Free Member

    I think (hope) that the consumable part of the Vectors would be the pedal body – certainly it’s what wears out for me on standard Look pedals.

    njee20
    Free Member

    Looking at ones who do this, the electronics seems to be the cheap bit. 50 quid for a replacement pedal pod for a Vector for example.

    That’s not the strain gauges though – they’re in the pedal body.

    certainly beyond that of a crank.

    Really? Not sure I agree with that – look at all the power meters tied to cranks – SRM, Quarq, Stages etc. I’d have thought longevity will be fine in virtually all instances. But, if you do happen to break a crank – either through a crash, or even more annoyingly through a manufacturing defect, then you’re screwed with the 4iiii. I wonder if a crank manufacturer would even try and wriggle out of a warranty claim on the crank itself.

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    That’s not the strain gauges though – they’re in the pedal body.

    They are in the spindle.

    I think (hope) that the consumable part of the Vectors would be the pedal body – certainly it’s what wears out for me on standard Look pedals.

    Pedal bodies with bearings are replaceable. Electronics pod is replaceable. All are reasonably cheap. It’s the spindle with the strain gauges in that’s the expensive bit.

    njee20
    Free Member

    They are in the spindle.

    Yes, sorry, I meant as in the pedal itself, rather than the pods.

    The point is that, as you say, the strain gauges are the expensive bit, and I was suggesting it’s a shame you can’t somehow decouple those from the plastic housing (or at least the part of the housing you stick epoxy on) so you could reuse it. I guess that doing that introduces an increased likelihood of error.

    adsh
    Free Member

    If it’s going to be £ parity with $ price then it’s not quite low enough to overcome the negatives for me.

    njee20
    Free Member

    4iiii running into issues with self installation, now you need to send your cranks to them and they’ll apply the unit and return, alu cranks only. Not great for those of us outside North America! March delivery now too. They’re gonna have to sort that, that’s a big blow to any profit I’m sure.

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    Ouch that is a blow. Hope they can sort it out. Self-installation was always going to be hard to get right. Anyone on here got a pre-order and sending their cranks over?

    njee20
    Free Member

    They’re implying they’ll swallow any additional costs incurred, but there’s a big time component – I imagine that’ll be a month or so without cranks.

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    Well if the product is good I reckon it’s still a nicer option than Stages. I’d think I’d be happy enough to source my own cranks (a proper pair!) and send them over to get it installed.

    Weren’t they also going to do an option where you can get it installed and calibrated at a LBS. Wonder why that’s not being offered as an option? Must be properly fiddly.

    njee20
    Free Member

    Clearly something unforeseen has happened – one assumes it’s because the placement of the pod was more crucial than they initially thought. as said on the last page, if you get it wrong, despite following their instructions there’ll be a lot of grumpy people with ruined pods!

    Watteam PowerBeat just got marginally more appealing.

    4iiii will have to sort that though, or prices will skyrocket!

    dirtyrider
    Free Member

    stages could essentially kill them off with a $100 drop surely?

    njee20
    Free Member

    Need to be more, $200?

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    $200 quid price drop and a tube of super glue to install on your own cranks please 🙂

    monkeyfudger
    Free Member

    Stages should at least supply a thbe of superglue so you can stick it back on and/or repair the battery cover 😛

    bikebouy
    Free Member

    I’m now in the market for a Power Meter of some sort, this I fear is going to put me right at the forefront of me becoming obsessed with Watt’idge.

    Which bike to stick it on though? CX’er or Roadie? Hmmm..

    I will await 4iii and start delving into Stages for a first line of action.

    Eeeek, never thought I’d go down this route. 😐

    dirtyrider
    Free Member

    Which bike to stick it on though? CX’er or Roadie? Hmmm..

    Something you can use on both?

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    Not much you can easily switch between both. Spider based, pain changing cranks and chainrings. Hub based, pain changing wheels and tyres and having less than optimal wheel choice. Pedal based, usually different cleats between road and CX so not an easy swap. NDS crank based probably the easiest provided you run the same style chain set and crank length and are happy with single side. Still a pain though. I’d just get two.

    Rotor LT may be a nice option for the TCX as it does look good with that chainset 🙂 I don’t think you’ll be able to glue a 4iiii to it because of the grooves down the back of the crank arm.

    dirtyrider
    Free Member

    prototype Shimano Power Meter, looking like a Pioneer

    njee20
    Free Member

    Only in its method of mounting – the Pioneer is 90 degrees further round. Could be interesting, reckon it’ll a) be years before it’s released and b) be **** pricey.

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    Yes, aren’t they going the same route as Rotor and mounting the strain gauges inside the crank arm and not just on the surface? I guess you can only do this if you manufacture the crank arm.

    monkeyfudger
    Free Member

    Had heard Shimano were developing but that’s the first pic I’ve seen. You sure about that Njee? I reckon we’ll see different price points in a 105/Ultegra/Dura Ace stylee with different metrics available on the higher end stuff, maybe basic PM on 105, PM with left/right balance on Ultegra then all singing & dancing efficiency measurements on Dura Ace like the Panasonic.

    njee20
    Free Member

    Certainly not sure, pure speculation. But Shimano won’t release anything until it’s absolutely ready, and I can’t believe its close when that looks like a rough prototype that’s just broken cover for the first time. Price… Could be wrong, and the tiered pricing could be good, just suspect they’ll aim for premium.

    monkeyfudger
    Free Member

    Certainly interesting times either way, We could eventually see PM’s come as standard equipment when not long ago you were talking about £1000’s! I wonder how many PM’s Pioneer have sold? Their offering is up there with SRM price wise.

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    I’d be quite surprised if they do tiered pricing. My bet would be a DA only model for at least the first few years of release.

    njee20
    Free Member

    That was my thinking, and with a Dura Ace label on it, it won’t be cheap, leaves them nowhere to go.

    dirtyrider
    Free Member

    they only have to come in under SRM prices for it to get bought

    Shimano power meter at Ultegra level? nah never or >10 years

    IanMunro
    Free Member

    I’d say 2-3 years time max for Ultegra. The electronics costs peanuts, and shimano are far better placed to absorb R&D costs than any existing power meter maker. There’s a similar level of technology in an ultegra DI2 mech as a power meter, and they knock them out for not much more than £100 quid now.

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    I’d say that long till we see it for sale on DA. You’ll have at least a season on the pro bikes before release, and that isn’t going to be this year. Ultegra, I’d not hold my breath. They may even do it as a non-group item but base it on DA.

Viewing 40 posts - 281 through 320 (of 1,317 total)

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