Hi all, been lurking for a while, thought about time I contrbuted 😉
I live in the north Bolton area, so have Rivington, Turton, Holcombe etc right on my door step.
I ride a 29er XC bike, but it’s getting pushed on everything but the single track stuff. Thinking of going up to either a Five or Alpine 650b.
Anyone owned both and any comments. It’s hilly, rocky, gritty and boggy where I am.

Thoughts / comments greatfully received. Thanks.

Hi Rob,
Rivington is my local too.

I ride a 29er XC bike, but it’s getting pushed on everything but the single track stuff

Hmm, got to say that this is not likely to be the bike that’s holding you back, as there’s nothing steep or technical enough around here to make an XC 29er feel out of its depth.
I’m not trying to be a smartass, just wouldn’t want you to jump into a new bike purchase on this basis.
I’d suggest going out with a group/club for a bit first, for two reasons:
1. I’m sure you’ll pick up loads of tips and build confidence from riding with other folk who’ll maybe be riding the stuff that you’re walking at the moment, maybe on bikes probably no different to yours.
2. If you’re convinced you need a new bike, you’ll probably get the chance to try a whole range of other folks bikes for a bit if you tell ’em you’re thinking about a new one.

Bogtrotters is a very active club in our area. (Just google for website/rideslist). Easier rides every Saturday & tougher rides on Sundays generally. Nightrides every Wednesday too.

This is good advice ^ I know the area well too, used to live in Preston and coppull and most of us used to ride hard tails when we rode there during the week, however some of the lads did ride 140/150mm travel bikes too. What I would say is there’s lots of riding fairly local (lakes/peaks/dales) that a bike like you’ve mentioned would be great for. My bit of advice would be don’t get something too similar to what you’ve already got (unless you’re selling it?) as you want to have genuinely different options. I’ve got a 29er trail hardtail, which I love and I’ve now plumbed for a 160mm travel KTM so I have different bikes for different jobs.

Lots of good shops nearby, pick one and get them ridden. I used to ride gisburn a lot too, so when i borrowed one I’d use it as a test track and compare like with like.

if you’re set on a FS, then a single pivot is easier to keep running by a country mile, and the five is a sorted, great all-rounder. just be prepared for filing cabinet gags….
alpine may be a bit of a lump for the sort of riding you suggest.

I suspect the Five will be more than enough bike. Alpine does look awesome but it’s very long and very slack so will be at its best at speed. Do they all still come with awful OEM Continentals instead of excellent black chili ones? On that subject, do you have good tyres on your 29er? Nothing like a big pair of tubeless knobbly sticky tyres for making a bike feel way more capable!

Lots of 5’s and Alpines in the Bogtrotters, I haven’t got one but both bikes are very capable with the 5 having the edge on the climbs and the Alpine being better down the hills, as you would expect. Depends on what type of riding you prefer. If you’re a big fat bugger like me, you’ll prefer to take your time on the climbs and smash those descents, so an Alpine would be best for me, although if you’re a race whippet you might prefer the 5.

However I am also a tight fisted Lancastrian and I went for a more frugal Canyon Strive, nearly half the cost of an Alpine but just as much fun!

Tom

Or get something that doesn’t bob around whilst being pedalled uphill, or brake jacks on the descents?

You’ve probably lurked enough to be familiar with the typical STW response of suggesting something else.

I’m also local and I’d be looking at the Alpine Five (aka Five 29) myself.

Especially if keeping your XC bike.

Clockwork !!!

Or get something that doesn’t bob around whilst being pedalled uphill, or brake jacks on the descents?

Just out of interest, when did you last ride an Orange bike? I keep reading all this stuff about bob and brake jack and I get the theory of why it might happen. Then I get on my Five and I just can’t feel it bob. Maybe it’s just the way I like to ride (seated climbing, spinning circles), or maybe it’s the pedal platform on modern shocks, but try as I might I can’t feel it.

Granted, if you drag your brakes through tricky sections the suspension will feel like crap, but you shouldn’t be doing that anyway.

Anyway, back to the question 🙂 Fives are fun and fun is good.

If you are set on orange and you do feel the need for a new bike, I’d include the segment on your list. I ride at rivi also and ride an Orange Gyro. It’s definitely not the bike that’s holding me back.

@Roverpig- fair question. Last time I rode a Five was about 2 months ago around Hebden Bridge. I’ve owned an older Patriot (2007 vintage) and a 224 Evo, and ridden several Fives before that.

It just seems rather blinkered to limit options to these two bikes, when there are now many cheaper and better options out there.

It’s a fair point GavinB. I tend to think that, if somebody wants to buy an Orange then they should just buy an Orange though. We’re talking about riding round in circles to get muddy here, no reason why the purchasing part should be rational 🙂

If the questions is “what’s the best bike for X?” then I agree that it doesn’t make any sense to limit yourself to one manufacturer (unless your definition of “best” includes something like “make in Halifax”).

I do think that whether someone gets on with an Orange has a lot to do with riding style though. As I say, bob just doesn’t seem to be an issue for me, but I’d accept that somebody with a more active climbing style may hate the way my bike rides. Coming back down I do have a lot more problem with the way the braking affects the suspension, but that’s because I’m a coward and I drag my brakes far too much (and brake at the wrong time). I’m choosing to view the way braking messes with suspension performance on the Five as an educational tool to help break what is a bad habit anyway (stay off the brakes and it feels great). But again that’s not going to be everybody’s view.

Or get something that doesn’t bob around whilst being pedalled uphill, or brake jacks on the descents?

100% anti-squat is a perfect balancing of pedal bob – over 100% and the suspension locks up more, less than 100% and it will bob quite a lot. Orange 5 (and pretty much every other recent single pivot I’ve looked at) performs very well on not needing a shock lockout/platform to climb/pedal well.

Bronson is noted for pedalling well but it’s no better. There are disadvantages to single pivots but a lack of anti-squat is not one of them!

Brake-squat (aka jack) is also no worse for a decent single pivot than other designs with similar anti-squat.

@roverpig – good point re it’s all about riding around in circles and getting muddy (and having fun too). I definitely noticed the brake jack on all the Orange bikes I owned/rode, and in some situations like it, but on fast, rough tracks it showed up my weaknesses as a rider.

To the OP, having ridden those tracks on quite a range of FS bikes, from Orange, IronHorse, Nukeproof, 2Stage, Scott – I found to my horror that my fastest time down the Ice Cream Run is on my Kinesis FF29 hardtail – go figure!

Chief, does 32/15 refer to the chainring and sprockets? If so, it’s not exactly a climbing gear. I wonder what those curves look like at 24/36 (where I live) ?

GavinB: plenty of weaknesses here too mate and maybe I’ll get fed up of my Five showing me up one day 🙂 It’s all just a bit of fun though.

GavinB – Member 
Or get something that doesn’t bob around whilst being pedalled uphill, or brake jacks on the descents?

POSTED 1 HOUR AGO # REPORT-POST

Do you do a lot of braking on the downs? Then maybe it wouldn’t be for you!
I tend to think Orange bikes especially the five and alpine are best suited to better riders because of this as good riders don’t need multi pivots…the new alpine would be wasted on riders who are timid to be honest.
Out of interest which tracks you riding around hebden?

There you go! The curves I posted earlier show how the anti-squat varies as you move through the travel.

OK, got it, thanks. So, the graph shows the Five in 32/15 with 25% travel as 110%, which matches the table. In 24/36 it would be 122% at 25% and presumably increase in the same way as travel increases. I guess that explains why I don’t feel it bobbing then.

I didn’t realise that the anti-squat was reduced with a larger rear sprocket though. Extrapolating the numbers in that table would suggest that the Five design isn’t very well suited to a 1×11 setup as 32/42 is presumably going to be below 100% (and a lot lower than the equivalent 24/36).

As a timid rider I think chris85 is right up to a point. The point being that the Five can actually help to educate you out of the timidness. There is a sort of virtuous/viscous cycle. Get timid, brake, bike feels worse so brake more. Or, relax, bike feels better, relax more. The Five is the only bike that has ever made me want to go for it on descents. Mind you, I’ve broken both arms in separate crashes “going for it” this year, so that may not be a good thing.

@chris – I just stuck to the canal towpath, as otherwise I knew I was just going to get bucked all over the place 😆

I’ll be surprised if all the detail around relative anti-squat characteristics is actually helping the OP though!!! 😯

I didn’t realise that the anti-squat was reduced with a larger rear sprocket though. Extrapolating the numbers in that table would suggest that the Five design isn’t very well suited to a 1×11 setup as 32/42 is presumably going to be below 100% (and a lot lower than the equivalent 24/36).

I don’t believe the anti-squat is always reduced as you go to a larger sprocket – it depends on how the chain angle, location and torque multiplication interacts with the pivot locations. It is always reduced as you go to a larger chain ring because the effective pivot point is always above the BB.

It does show that some bikes are much better of with 2×10 or 3×10 than 1×11 if you want them to pedal well.

I’ll be surprised if all the detail around relative anti-squat characteristics is actually helping the OP though!!!

True but I didn’t even consider test-riding an Orange 5 because of all the misinformation about single-pivots not pedalling well without using shock lockouts or strong platform damping – which is completely untrue!

I found to my horror that my fastest time down the Ice Cream Run is on my Kinesis FF29 hardtail – go figure!

I finally managed to beat my PR down there recently… on a Patriot!

😆

GavinB – Member 

@chris – I just stuck to the canal towpath, as otherwise I knew I was just going to get bucked all over the place

POSTED 1 HOUR AGO # REPORT-POST

Well it’s a good place to start if you haven’t much confidence handling a bike properly 😉

Yes, it must just be me then and I’ll stick to flat trails until I learn to ride.

so this is interesting, whats brake jack then. now weve covered pedal bob.

btw im a five rider thats consistently dragging his rear brake so id like to know whats wrong with it from a mechanical point of view

Latest 650b Alpine isn’t much heavier than a Five. Both great bikes, especially for up north and crappy conditions. I’d go Alpine and start exploring nastier trails further afield – Pennines, Lakes etc.

so this is interesting, whats brake jack then. now weve covered pedal bob.

It’s the rear suspension extending in response to the torque from the brake and the ground reaction at the tyre. You don’t usually get brake jack though – I think it’s because the force at the tyre is so powerfully pulling the axle backwards and the slightly rearward axle path of most bikes means that the suspension squats rather than jacking up.

So the real problem is actually that if the rear suspension is squatting it isn’t going to give the bike as much grip as if it remained neutral – therefore you want to minimise brake squat. Fortunately it isn’t a big deal at all because fork dive totally dominates the whole bike kinematics when braking. But if all else were equal then lower brake squat is a bit better.

I think the best reason to not drag your rear brake is that it’s bad for flow! And it wears out tyres and brake pads. When I’m dragging my brakes, I’m usually riding badly – when I’m staying off them and pulling them much harder and later and pumping the bike more then I’m usually riding well.

I wonder how many of these effects mainly exist in the mind of the rider. I’ve had my Five for a bit more than a year now. For most of that time I’d have said that I couldn’t feel any brake-jack. Now I think I can, but it could just be in my head. I experience it as the bike stiffening up when I apply the brake and feeling softer if I let them go. I thought this was the braking forces extending the rear suspension, throwing even more weight forward. But maybe it’s just the normal “fork dive” that I’m feeling or maybe it’s just me that’s getting stiffer as I grab the brake.

interesting. i understand it squatting but wondered why it was called brake jack. i even read that one test rider used it to weight the front as it pitched the bike forwards. That i dont understand!

There isn’t any brake jack! The suspension stiffens as you apply forces from either the chain (anti-squat) or brake (squat).

I have noticed that when I’m riding at my best I can nail the brakes right before I tip the bike into a corner and doing so gives a ton of front end grip due to the temporary weight transfer. I’m currently working on looking way ahead, and staying off the brakes unless I actually need to slow down. It’s not easy to just let the bike roll when one’s fear of serious injury starts trying to point out that you’re going rather fast and the trail isn’t exactly smooth and there are a lot of corners to make…

They’re quite interesting stats. I’ve got a 2010 Orange Five and went 1×10 just over a year ago, changed the NW chainring, cassette and chain 3 times, so it’s seen some wear. I fell in love with the bike again after going 1×10 (34T up front and standard XT 11-36 cassette), but couldn’t give a good reason why other than it just felt better. Think the graph and chart sum it up for me. I am just trying to resist updating to a 650b Five or Alpine for the minute…

cheers guys,
so I bottom out the bike regular, I smashed up a Jamis carbon full sussie after 4 weeks riding and I’m sure the Trek is going the same way.
i dont ride the brakes downhill, dont think I’m ‘that’ slow (only ridden San Marino 3 times, once in the dark, once with my young lad and once flowing, on that I was about 350 out of 1200 riders (dunno maybe that is shit) – the back end regular bottoms out off any drop off over 1/2m. The static sag is set up correct front and rear, at max 30%, tending towards 25%.
I’m 78kgs so mid-weight range, only been riding this season, but background was supermoto, enduro and quite a bit of green laning (shame about Chapel Gate eh) so used to slamming a bike in to the track, maybe I’m being too hamfisted. Will look up the bogtrotters, I live in Egerton, so on the door step. thanks for that tip, appreciated.

Or get something that doesn’t bob around whilst being pedalled uphill, or brake jacks on the descents?

I’ve got a Five and a Patriot and I’ve got no idea what you are talking about.

Climbing bob is non existent, I turn my RP23 to fully open on climbs to get better traction. It might be slightly rougher than some designs on fast small vibrations, but tbf I’m to busy grinning madly to give much of a shit about that. It’s not an executive saloon 🙂

so I bottom out the bike regular

Shock too soft then. The ‘correct’ sag thing is only a rough guideline and it varies for different bikes and setups. If you bottom out then there’s not enough air – end of. More air or better finesse.

I experience it as the bike stiffening up when I apply the brake and feeling softer if I let them go.

This has been done to death on here. Brake jack can’t really happen if the caliper is on the same piece of metal as the axle. The suspension feels harder because the wheel is being braked and is slamming into rocks instead of rolling over them.

Rob, from how you describe your riding and moto background, I’d go for the Alpine – you’re used to handling a big bike (with an engine) and you’re clearly hitting things fairly fast and hard. If you’re bottoming out either end hard then you need to increase the spring ramp-up by adding volume spacers and/or increasing high speed compression damping (if you have a knob to tweak that). The main weakness of the Orange single pivot design is the leverage rate is linear so you need to have a good shock which can ramp the rate up for you – get a shock like a CCDBair on the Alpine and that’s all sorted.

does sound like you’re default is ‘aggressive’. 😀
you’re going to kill any frame if you routinely bottom it out as you describe.

One thing with Oranges is that the full builds are a bit rubbish, value-wise and low-end rims on top-end bikes. Their “upgrade kits” are poor value too.

I’d get the best deal I could frame only and source the rest of the bits separately.

Cool, so I’m doing the 4 towers Sunday so will increase the air pressure in the shock and maybe a few psi in the front too, they are both Fox CTDs so mid range at most.
Ive got my eye on a 2014 Five Pro which is 3 months old, the guy wants £2800 for it which feels like a deal?

Will post up how Sunday goes, and thanks again for the advice guys, see you out in the trails hopefully 😉
Rob

I had my ctd tuned and larger volume spacers fitted. The standard ctd shock was the only thing I disliked about the bike. Pikes and a rear shock tune and I love it. The standard builds suck, I bought the Frame and built it up, cheaper.