When will the politicians ever learn?

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  • When will the politicians ever learn?
  • Premier Icon cloudnine
    Subscriber

    When will the politicians ever learn?

    Maybe when people of stw learn to post in the right forum?

    reggiegasket
    Member

    ISIS are indeed terrible. HT2 is where it’s at.

    devash
    Member

    Every unwitting kid killed by a bunker busting bomb or a hellfire missile is another dollar in the back pocket of Unkle Sam.

    Obama – the first Nobel Peace Prize winner with a kill list.

    The world has truly lost the plot. I shudder to think what kind of world my kids will inherit.

    Premier Icon oldnpastit
    Subscriber

    We’re going to be cleaning up the mess left by GWB/TB for decades to come.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    There’s a lot of oil in the Middle East.

    Premier Icon DezB
    Subscriber

    Hey, the Remembrance bit is been and gone. Let’s get on with a decent WAR.

    rebel12
    Member

    For gods sake, now certain MP’s are talking about military action in Iraq!

    Have a look here

    Yes it’s hard to see innocent women and children wounded or homeless on the TV news, but has history not already taught us that meddling in other countries affairs (however well intended) leads to nothing but more trouble turmoil, violence and human hardship for all concerned?

    When will our MP’s learn to stay the **** out of other peoples problems. The only way that the Middle East problems will ever resolve themselves is to let things play out naturally in their own time and without constant interference from us lot in the West who think we know what’s best for these countries.

    It would appear that democracy and the freedoms that people enjoy in the West might not be desireable or suitable for many peoples or countries around the world. So lets stay out of conflicts where we’re not wanted and stop trying to force everyone to live by our idealised Western rules – otherwise we could be accused of being just as bad as ISIS who our government now seems intent on destroying.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    There’s a lot of people whose worldview is proved absolutely correct when Muslims go on the rampage decapitating Christians……

    It’s been the top story on I the telegraph for the last week

    PJM1974
    Member

    There’s a lot of oil in the Middle East.

    This.

    If humanitarianism were truly on the agenda we’d have intervened wholesale in Somalia, Zimbabwe, North Korea and Gaza long ago.

    gobuchul
    Member

    The mess in Iraq was created by the US and the UK.

    This mess has led to mass slaughter and genocide.

    There is a stronger argument for doing something this time than there was last time.

    Or should we stand back and allow the genocide?

    barkm
    Member

    Natural resources. The region must be pacified, puppet leaders installed, all good for business. It’s a simple as that, not a cynical view, just reality. Western nations are exploiting the malaise to a degree, but to the same ends. If the region had its shit together there would be no basis on which to legitimise military intervention, and thusly they could hold the US over a barrel (quite literally).

    The alternative is waging war on Russia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_proven_oil_reserves

    Politicians don’t need to learn; they’re already adept at profiting from war and spinning the situation to look like it’s in the general interest.

    Bankers too; often times they’ll fund both sides, as they have interests in the weapons companies…

    Weapons sure as hell don’t do the environment any favours.

    The people who really need to learn is us; the system is broken and unless we want to be marking centenaries of mass slaughter until the planet can no longer support human life, we need to make a change.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    When will the politicians ever learn?

    When the electorate do.

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Subscriber

    The West has had a big hand in creating the environment which has lead to this. Sadam Hussain was not a good guy but his regime kept a lid of the sectarian divisions, removing him had lead to 100,000+ deaths as the result of infighting and daily suicide bombings.

    Sadly I think we do have to go back into Iraq on the ground.

    I am concerned the Muslim world will see this as the West responding to Christians in need but doing nothing as 170,000 Muslims have died fighting each other in Syria.

    Hilary Clinton was forthright in her views last week

    Clinton Interview Link

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Subscriber

    There’s a lot of people whose worldview is proved absolutely correct when Muslims go on the rampage decapitating Christians……

    @kimbers or indeed other Muslims. The photo of an Australian citizen who joined ISIS has posted pictures of his sons holding up decapitated heads in Syria has attracted a lot of publicity.

    Premier Icon just5minutes
    Subscriber

    “The mess in Iraq was created by the US and the UK. This mess has led to mass slaughter and genocide.”

    The facts don’t really support this.

    The spread of Wahabi and Salafist Islam has happened over the last 30+ years but undoubtedly has reached a tipping point now, where today’s “extreme” events will undoubtedly become the new norm.

    Today’s images of a 7 year old Australian boy holding up a severed head while his dad praises him are similar to the Belgian boy / father featured on the Vice TV documentary last week – these people come from countries thousands of miles apart but have been imbued in a matter of weeks with a level of hatred that is so deep they now genuinely believe their duty is to kill all “infidels”, which unfortunately they describe as everyone in Europe. Even the Turks are seen as fair game and “infidels” in the game of who can be most brutal.

    What people don’t seem to “get” is that the ideology that underpins the events seen in Iraq and Syria has been taught over many decades, and close analysis shows that the justification for the extreme brutality changes to reflect the political discourse of the day.

    We are essentially dealing with tens of millions of people who have been brainwashed to hate everyone else, that everyone else is to blame for the ills of their own society e.g. poverty is due to infidels and not unconstrained population growth… and who believe that their vision for justice can only be achieved by silencing all others through abject brutality.

    wordnumb
    Member

    Can we not send Boris over to calm the shituation?

    noteeth
    Member

    Can we not send Boris over to calm the shituation?

    The first “asset” we should deploy to the area is Blair, the Holy Envoy of Peace. And also his wife.

    wordnumb
    Member

    No, Blair’s doing excellent work over there already – imagine how peaceful it’ll be once everybody is dead.

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Subscriber

    @just5 – not sure the Turks are seen as infidels, as I understand it most of these Western jihadists got into Syria via Turkey, that was until international pressure got them to close the border. Very concerning as to what will happen when these people come back to the West.

    rebel12
    Member

    Or should we stand back and allow the genocide?

    That’s always the argument that’s brought up, but the fact is there’s been far more violence, genocide and human rights violations in Iraq, Afganistan etc as a result of and since the UK/US interventions there.

    If we’d just left them to get on with it over the last 20-30 years, without Western ‘do good’ meddling, then these Middle East countries might have by now got the fighting mostly out of their systems and might already be several steps closer to a peaceful resolution.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    …they now genuinely believe their duty is to kill all “infidels”, which unfortunately they describe as everyone in Europe.

    They’re killing Iraqis. At least that’s what this thread is about.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Non-mulsim ones though wasn’t it?

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Subscriber

    They’re killing Iraqis. At least that’s what this thread is about.

    They’re killing just about anyone, Muslims, Christians, Yizadi. You cannot pigeon hole ISIS into just Iraq, its Syria and Iraq now with ambitions to spread fundamentalist Islam much more broadly.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    They’re killing just about anyone, Muslims, Christians, Yizadi.

    In other words Iraqis. This thread and the OP’s link is about Iraq.

    just5minutes might want to point out that ISIS feels a duty to kill all Europeans but his/her fear-mongering is ignoring the fact that ISIS appear to be preoccupied with killing Iraqis at the moment, including one who aren’t necessarily infidels, as he/she puts it.

    Premier Icon just5minutes
    Subscriber

    Ernie – take some time to watch the 5 part documentary on ISIS on Vice (web news service) – it’s crystal clear from watching it that the ambition is far wider than anything limited to Syria and Iraq.

    The Vice documentary is quite an eye opener but by way of explanation on the Turkey reference, Turkey has joined the list of “infidel” countries because they have allowed democracy and also closed the dam on the river Euphrates that supplies water and allow power to be produced downstream in Iraq and Syria. ISIS have stated they will travel to Istanbul and make the Turks open the dam by force.

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Subscriber

    @ernie you seem desperate to pigeon hole and compartmentalise things which have a much wider impact. Aside from Australian ISIS fighters and his sons holding up the heads of dead Syrians we have French ISIS jihadists returning to Belgium and murdering a Jewish person in Belgium. Part of the reason direct action is being advocated in Iraq is that the US and other Western nations want to halt the spread of this very dangerous group. It is about far more than Iraq.

    @just5minutes – I didn’t know about the dam issue. I will check it out. I did see that in the recent election a senior Turkish politician said women shouldn’t smile in public (too wanton) and if a man looked at them they should turn away in modesty and look to the floor.

    Premier Icon just5minutes
    Subscriber

    the attacks aren’t just confined to the incident referenced above in Belgium – in May three people were shot dead in a Jewish Museum, and France has similar problems:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/22/france-jewish-shops-riot_n_5608612.html

    It’s hard not to see the clear signs that the mindset behind ISIS is already well entrenched in radicalised young men and women in countries across Europe.

    Premier Icon D0NK
    Subscriber

    I did see that in the recent election a senior Turkish politician said women shouldn’t smile in public

    I thought we’d already established that that was due to either:
    a. wind
    or
    b. reminiscing about their experience the previous night
    shirley nothing to get too worked up about.

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Subscriber

    @DoNK some humour surrounding a dark subject, perhaps not a bad thing. I don’t think he was referring just to those on trains either.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    just5minutes – Member

    The facts don’t really support this.

    Well, yes and no. The west didn’t create Isis but I reckon we’ve helped create the power vacuum into which they’re moving. Hussein would have resisted in a way the current Iraq can’t or won’t.

    I dunno. I could get behind the “We have a duty to put right what once went wrong” mindset except that we’re quite bad at it. Quite a lot of the things we’ve done wrong were attempts at fixing things we’d done wrong.

    Premier Icon D0NK
    Subscriber

    Quite a lot of the things we’ve done wrong were attempts at fixing things we’d done wrong.

    if you “let them get on with it all” at any point you’re going to be accused of washing your hands of the mess you’ve made.

    Maybe each government thinks “this time we’ll get it right”

    or cynically maybe it’s more of the same, keeping an eye on the oil and making their chums in the heavy munitions industry happy.

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Subscriber

    “Something” does need to be done and as soon as possible. ISIS took over the banks in Northern Iraq ($500m – $1 billion in assets now in terrorist hands) and as I understand it are pumping and selling oil at $50 a barrel vs closer to $100 market price to further bolster their coffers. They are the world’s best ever funded terrorist organisation.

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Subscriber

    I think the Hussein/Iraq under control view is interesting. I wonder if this is partially why the West was cautious about arming the rebels against Asad in Syria. Aside from the fact they would be arming a rebellion against an established government (who had never threatened the West even if they where doing very unpleasant things in their own country) they could well have found themselves directly arming ISIS and/or the Palestinians fighting against Asad.

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