I know the legal minimum tread is 1.6mm. My car is in for a service at the moment and the fronts are down to 2.6mm.

Given I’m about to do a 1000 mile fully loaded road trip up through Scotland, should I change them now?

I get the fronts on my Golf done at around the 3mm to 3.5mm point.
rears at slightly less.

Always better to change them sooner than to find out you should have done it and it’s too late I’d have said!

Auto Express did a test a while ago (and I think a subsequent campaign) showing that tyre performance falls off quite dramatically when the tread depth drops below 3mm. They were trying to get the government to up the min tread depth to 3mm.

In very poor weather, it probably makes a difference if you end up in an emergency situation. In most other conditions it probably makes no difference.

What is your reason for changing them? You mention 1000 miles.
Are you concerned that the tyre will wear down to the legal limit before the end of your trip?
Or that your safety may be compromised as a result of the relatively low tread depth.

If it’s the first one, then you should be OK unless on really soft rubber and doing lots of traffic light grand prix starts.
If it’s the second one, then it’s something only you can really answer. If you can afford it and would feel more confident on new rubber, then get them changed.

Personally, I wouldn’t bother. Perhaps if it was coming into winter, but not at this time of year.

Seems to me that the 1000 miles won’t make the difference in itself so it’s more what you’re comfortable with.

This time of year? I’d leave them on.

They are not going to get close to the legal limit in the next 1000 miles unless you do burnouts.

It’s good that you are considering changing them as I too agree that the 1.6mm limit it too low. Especially in winter but also in heavy summer storms.

Perhaps if it was coming into winter, but not at this time of year

That was my thought. Got winter tyres in storage for when it gets cold, I’d prefer to see if I can eek out the present ones until then. I’ll check after the trip.

Having said that I was driving through torrential rain and local flooding at the weekend, and quite happy for my 6mm of tread.

What are the rear tyres like? Is your car front or rear wheel drive?
In Scotland unless you’re very lucky you’ll get some rain so you’ll need lots of grip and good rain clearing channels to prevent aquaplaning.

rear tyres are less than 3 months old so loads of tread.
car is fwd.

rear tyres are less than 3 months old so loads of tread.
car is fwd.

swop them around,

Type shops specifically recommend against this nowadays, it’s best to have the grip on the rear if anywhere, to stop any lift off oversteer occurring. Under steer at the frontis usually safer.

I personally replace mine at about 3mm to cover the changeable weather situations.

I personally replace mine at about 3mm to cover the changeable weather situations.

This.
Some of the biggest accidents in the Beatock area of the M74 are caused by aqua planing 🙄 The standing water on the new section between Carlisle/Gretna also suffers from horrendous surface water.
All depends on how good you think you are at avoiding other idiots on the road, there are plenty 🙄
Changed my 2 fronts for that very reason a few weeks ago, 2wks of caravanning.

“Type shops specifically recommend against this nowadays,”
1st place i would go for advice- ref kwikfit thread.

“it’s best to have the grip on the rear if anywhere,”
Say that to yourself out loud.
FWD which is what we are talking about, you ask the front wheels pull you along, steer you and stop you.
But you’d rather have more grip on the draggers on the back!

“to stop any lift off oversteer occurring. Under steer at the frontis usually safer”
One circumstance where good rear grip helps, however this is a all a lawyers construct. i can see how poor driving practice could lead you into this situation, but how many times a year do you incounter lift off over steer?
Against stopping slowing or steering away from someone else.

Stuff the tyres. Just found the timing belt is due for replacement in 700 miles. Guess thats higher priority for my cash…

Some of the biggest accidents in the Beatock area of the M74 are caused by aqua planingfolks not slowing down for conditions

swop them around,

bad idea. putting worn tyres on the rear means the back is likely to spin round on you in the event of a slide.

“bad idea. putting worn tyres on the rear means the back is likely to spin round on you in the event of a slide.”

when was the last time you got close to sliding the back end.

all the kids i know who spun their 106s/206s/clios when we were younger blamed lift off over steer – reality was they were trying to take too tight a corner too fast and bottled it.

“bad idea. putting worn tyres on the rear means the back is likely to spin round on you in the event of a slide.”

Really, so what you are saying is that if you have greater tread depth at in your tyres at one end of you car you you could spin in a slide.

It’s a topic that seems inexplicably entrenched, this. I can see the logic but like Speshpaul I don’t find it worked in practice (in my experience, on my cars, ymmv). Even with downright crap tyres on the back both my cars pushed the front first, I never had the rear slide without the front already being lost, so making front end slides more common and more dangerous in order to make vanishingly rare rear slides safer didn’t make any sense. The rear just has a much easier job to do and so needs less grip to do it.

Or to put it another way… The objective isn’t to decide which way you go through the hedge; It’s to stay out of the hedge entirely.

This sounding a lot like the annual “2 or 4 winter tyres” thread.

(I fit all 4)

all the kids i know who spun their 106s/206s/clios when we were younger blamed lift off over steer – reality was they were trying to take too tight a corner too fast and bottled it.

So what you’re saying then, is that they lifted off and the car oversteered?

yes. here is the AA saying it

http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/car-tyres.html

and michelin

http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/learn-share/care-guide/ten-tyre-care-tips

heres a video explaining why.

no try reading it again.

you might get it right the second time.

theres a reason they had to lift off for the oversteer to start – only wannabe fast car drivers would try to read anything else into it.

blaming the lift off over steer for the crash is elementry – if they hadnt been driving too fast for the road it would have been a moot point.

haha very good. They may have crashed, or just had a scary moment on a roundabout, however from your description they turned backwards as the rear end got lary instead of the front pushing on. Not disputing that they made an arse of something to kick the whole incident off.

Legend – wannabe fast car driver.

“it’s best to have the grip on the rear if anywhere,”
Say that to yourself out loud.
FWD which is what we are talking about, you ask the front wheels pull you along, steer you and stop you.
But you’d rather have more grip on the draggers on the back!

What all the major tyre manufacturers recommend, is more grip on the back. Maybe they know something about tyres and grip and whatnot.

Incidentally, all four wheels steer you.

Northwind – Member
It’s a topic that seems inexplicably entrenched, this. I can see the logic but like Speshpaul I don’t find it worked in practice (in my experience, on my cars, ymmv). Even with downright crap tyres on the back both my cars pushed the front first, I never had the rear slide without the front already being lost, so making front end slides more common and more dangerous in order to make vanishingly rare rear slides safer didn’t make any sense. The rear just has a much easier job to do and so needs less grip to do it.

I’ve managed to do this – not through trying, so I now make sure that my tyres with the most grip are on the back…

When I got my car the fronts were almost bald, so I asked the bloke to get them changed or knock £150 off the cost of the car He of course changed them for the cheapest tyre he could get (£35 each for 205/45/16s – Formula 2000’s I think they were called).
Put up with them and when the rears needed changing I got some Kumho Ecsta Sports put on. Asked the garage to put them on the front and swap the rubbish fronts to the rear.
Few nights later driving to the gym in the rain and had to go right at a roundabout; the fronts tracked round perfectly fine. I wasn’t going fast for the roundabout, but the backend all of a sudden started coming round (which was an odd sensation in a FWD car). I managed to catch it and carry on, but got the rears swapped that weekend for the same tyres as I’d just had put on the front.

I’d rather provoke understeer in a FWD car, as that is what you expect to happen and what the car is set-up to do.

Having just bought two new tyres – which are to replace worn fronts I’ve just read this on the kwik fit website so although its counter intuitive I guess it makes sense.

In the unlikely event that a tyre deflates suddenly, then it is easier to control the vehicle if this occurs at the front of the vehicle. For improved handling and stability it is now recommended that the ‘best’ tyres should always be fitted at the rear of the vehicle. This is irrespective of whether the car is front or rear wheel drive.

stumpy01- so you had nice new tyres on the front and cheap hard as nails tyres on the back that were worn out. Yea.
then you drove to the feed back the front tyres gave you rather that the condition that you knew the rear tyres were in. And it went wrong.

Now you could argue that this is reason to put the new tyres on the back (and the tyre makers lawyers will- see above lawyers contruct.)
Or you could take the info you have – i’ve got crap tyres on the back. i’m must remember that i’m not Stirling Moss. and drive accordingly.

New on the back is do with protecting tyre makers/suppliers from law suits.

thomthumb – Member

yes. here is the AA saying it

http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/car-tyres.html

and michelin

http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/learn-share/care-guide/ten-tyre-care-tips

heres a video explaining why.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xzQQfT5O84

Don’t bother. I once linked about 25 such comments from tyre companies, the AA, garages, various motoring experts and of course the big swingers on here knew best 😀

New on the back is do with protecting tyre makers/suppliers from law suits.

law suits relating to what though? crashes.

Speshpaul….you are making the assumption that I was ‘driving like Stirling Moss’.
As I said in my post, I wasn’t driving fast. Just going round that roundabout as I have done many times before without issue.

The thing is, I expect my car to understeer if it is going to lose traction. I don’t expect it to oversteer. If I’d have had the same tyres front and rear, then even if the rears were worn it probably wouldn’t have happened. But, that’s largely irrelevant as it did happen with that set up.
Personally, I’d rather my fwd car understeered. You can do what you want…

I believe the tire manufacturers also say similar about driving with mismatched tires no ? which you were – or you chose to ignore that part ?

law suits relating to folk who drive too fast for conditions then blame any which way they can but its never driving too fast.

This sounding a lot like the annual “2 or 4 winter tyres” thread.

Oddly I was thinking that last week as like the OP im down to about 2-3 mm.

Now that the EU has stickers on the tyres showing wet braking and rolling resistance I was a bit surprised to see that STW’s mantra that they were no worse on fuel and better than normal tyres even at normal UK temperatures, that they were all consistently scoring the rock bottom marks, where even the crap budget tyres were rating arround a C!

retro83 – Member

of course the big swingers on here knew best

It’s hardly about being a “big swinger” Advice is a good place to start but it’s sensible to put your own experience ahead of general advice- I read the advice, tested it, it informed my opinion but it doesn’t overrule my experience.

Mind you it also led me to conclude that if I’m ever asking “which end should I put my crap tyres on” the answer is the skip end.

Oh… fwiw I think the car does make a difference too, some are more stable than others. If you lift off the throttle of mine mid corner, it’s really undramatic, just gently and smoothly starts to slow. Big lazy engine, slow throttle response, flat power curve… So no abrupt weight transfer to the front. But it’s quite heavy, so it asks a lot of the front tyres if you change direction in a hurry and it literally made the difference between turning, and going straight on. That’s a big deal imo. But maybe a lighter/more agile car would make the turn and then the rear end would lose grip and cause a problem.

I’m with the new tyres on the back ‘camp’.

It takes a ‘driving enthusiast’ to be able identify and catch oversteer and even then, on a groggy morning commute its not really the first thing on your mind. I’ve had it at 10mph in a wet car park after someone reversed out of a space in front of me and I took my foot off the gas in 1st gear (didn’t even touch the brakes).

However, no matter how incompetent or inattentive, anyone can control (or at least not worsen) understeer as your natural reaction is to slow down, which weights up the front and regains grip, and its predictable.

Panic stop from 30mph in the wet over drain covers? I’d rather end up with the front sliding into the kerb rather than the back sliding into the kerb and nosing the car out into oncoming traffic for a nice side impact.

I’m in the “most grip on the rear camp”, partly based on some experience using wheel force transducers.
http://www.sensorland.com/AppPage087.html

Yes – front wheels do a lot of the work due to load transfer, but the converse is that the same load transfer makes the back end awfully light. In bad conditions, a small destabilising motion (e.g. swerving under heavy braking) could lead to a very rapid spin that most people would not catch. I’ve only ever been driven by a handful of professional people that can process and react to that kind of event (and that was when they were prepared for it).

Haven’t read the links but I would always fit new on the rear of a FWD car.

Although they don’t do any acceleration or much braking, rear tyres follow a tighter arc on bends, so more is asked of them at a safety critical time. In FWD cars, they also have less weight on them most of the time than fronts. Unweighting the back end further through deceleration or braking on a bend increases the chance of oversteer. Correcting lift off oversteer takes lots of road space, possibly more than is available.

Ideally, speed should be lost prior to the bend with the engine just pulling to stabilise the car around the bend but sheep / deer / debris / wet manhole covers etc don’t read roadcraft and shit can happen, causing drivers to take emergency action. Deeper tread on the back shifts more water and allows the tyres to find lateral grip, reducing the likelihood of oversteer.

Front tyres, whilst doing more work on a FWD car, have more weight on them and are nicely connected to the driver’s hands via the steering. Understeer with worn tyres induced by clumsy driving, with heavy steering or throttle inputs causing a loss of traction, is instantly felt through the steering wheel. The car is stable with only the front wheels pointing the wrong way and is relatively easy to correct when compared to controlling the whole car during lift off oversteer.

Not sure what this has to do with tyre company lawyers.

EDIT. Change at 3mm minimum.

I change at around 1mm.

Yes, illegal i know.

(the 1.6mm limit is set arbitrarily and designed to stop idiots driving along on the chords)