Viewing 39 posts - 1 through 39 (of 39 total)
  • Wheels: Weight vs hub engagement
  • Kryton57
    Full Member

    I’ve often read that a fast engagement can often offset wheel weight – 29ers specifically. Is there any way quantifying this or is it magazine BS?

    Just a semi scientific interest really.

    honourablegeorge
    Full Member

    Might make you accelerate fractionally faster I guess
    In that whatever tiny lag us caused by engagement is reduced. But a larger wheel takes more effort to accelerate… engagement won’t change that.

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    Thats what should be quantified.

    What difference for a 120pt engagement bs 40pt engagement on the same weight wheel, and how equalised by weight?

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    cloudnine
    Free Member

    The weight of the wheel is equal to the weight of your wallet..
    Generally speaking The lighter the wheel = lighter wallet
    Not so light wheels wont engage your wallet quite so quickly.

    What was the question?

    cynic-al
    Free Member

    I am horrified:

    1. At the BS mfrs come out with to sell their near identical kit.

    2. Journalists get paid for reprinting it verbatim.

    3. Educated people lap it up.

    chakaping
    Free Member

    I would file that one firmly in the BS folder.

    Now if you’d said stiffness vs. weight we could probably have had six pages of increasingly anal pseudo-scientific debate on the matter.

    Rorschach
    Free Member

    .

    Rorschach
    Free Member

    fisha
    Free Member

    I suppose potentially a quicker engagement could mean that where a wheel hits an obstacle that causes it to lose inertia, the quicker applied drive transfer would work to counter that loss in a shorter time … Resulting in less loss of speed in the first place. In a 29er with the larger diameter, the distance covered on the ground and forces are a bit greater in such circumstances compared to a 26er. .

    So for a heavier wheel which takes more effort to get up to speed then a setup which reduces it’s loss (or more to the point can counter the loss quicker) of speed in the first *may* help a little.

    But weight in general probably makes magnitudes more difference.

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    But weight in general probably makes magnitudes more difference.

    So, why is it quoted as a point of difference?

    deanfbm
    Free Member

    B.S.

    Also remember that for example you have one hub with 5* gap and one with 10* gap, this is worst case.

    You’re most likely to be engaging from a 2.5* gap on the 5* and 5* on the 10*, so in reality the most likely difference is 2.5*.

    You’ll get instances where the 5* engages after 5* and instances where the 10* engages in 0*, and at gap inbetween.

    Highlights it’s diminishing returns too.

    Rorschach
    Free Member

    Onzadog
    Free Member

    So I can’t use this argument to justify onyx racing sprag clutch hubs?

    Klunk
    Free Member

    get a fixed gear if it worries you that much. super light too.

    Rorschach
    Free Member

    So I can’t use this argument to justify onyx racing sprag clutch hubs?

    Nope
    [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCExLjxsHBA[/video]

    cynic-al
    Free Member

    What happened to the new enlightenment of the consumer free journey in life?

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    Just a semi scientific interest really.

    Nothing being bought here.

    deanfbm
    Free Member

    Forgot to chat about gearing too…….

    Northwind
    Full Member

    **** all difference in terms of power/speed, fast engagement feels nice and can be handy for trialsy stuff if you’re ratcheting or pedalling the wheel up but if you imagine 40 vs 120, what that actually means is 9 degrees or 3 degrees, which at the end of the crank (assuming 1:1 gearing) is about 18mm, ie buggerall.

    It’s one of those things where there’s a difference between really slow, and alright, but there’s not so much difference between alright and fast

    Onzadog
    Free Member

    Wow, the theory behind the onyx is great but that video is a bit of an eye opener.

    Rorschach
    Free Member

    That and the fact they weigh the same as a small moon.

    Onzadog
    Free Member

    That’s not a moon, it’s a space station.

    Rorschach
    Free Member

    :mrgreen:

    Ming the Merciless
    Free Member

    My Nobl hub engages instantly, none of the windup in the above video. Ball parking it’s about 100-130g heavier than the roval hub it replaced. The instant pick up and silent rolling are great. Helps on techie climbs.

    New wheels definitely spin up quicker, front wheel is 70g lighter than the roval it replaced, the rear is 60g heavier but all the extra weight is on the hub rather than the rim.

    Very happy with them.

    It’s not “a moon heavier, more hammerhead corvette”

    vincienup
    Free Member

    I can see why it sounds like it should make sense, the engagement points should increase responsiveness to power input. They won’t make it more efficient on normal measures and will only help dealing with obstacles because you should be able to give the back end a little squirt of power more rapidly once you decide it’s needed. Improved throttle response with no other performance benefit if you like.

    Certainly my Pro2Evo40t feels more responsive than the older Pro2 on another wheelset (with fresh bearings and freehub) so maybe there is something in it. I think there ought to be.

    Something I noticed on a Fatty was that it became very obvious that while it took more effort to accelerate quickly, do long as the wheels stayed on the floor they held the speed much better across terrain than smaller /lighter wheels. That’ll be inertia. 29ers won’t have quite the same effect: there you get the increased rollover potential of the bigger wheels but the wheels are generally much lighter than Fatbike wheels even though you’re usually looking at a similar rolling radius – simply because there’s so much less rubber.

    mechanicaldope
    Full Member

    What is that video showing? Don’t think I understand this thread at all!

    Onzadog
    Free Member

    The hub in the video is an onyx. It uses a sprag clutch. Th theory is that it has zero lag, zero noise and zero ratchet friction compared to a conventional pawl spring hub.

    I assume what we’re seeing in the video is the effect of the sprag clutch creating hoop stresses and expanding the hub shell allowing the wind up you can see in the video.

    Maybe the hub needs a thicker steel shell but that’s not going to do the weight any favours.

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    Don’t think I understand this thread at all!

    My op was about understanding whether high engagement hub offset wheel weight. So if i were to own a set of 2kg 29er wheels with 120pt engagment, and another 1800g set of wheels with 40pt engagement – all else being equal – which would be the fastest / best?

    In was then wondering if it could be quantified.

    I believe whats being said is that its such a small difference that the wheel weight is the go to factor for “faster” (acceleration) wheels not engagement.

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    That’s not a moon, it’s a space station.

    FFS 👿

    uphillcursing
    Free Member

    Once you get to 32 or 40 points of engagement it is enough unless you are riding trials. Even on really low pickup wheels you just get used to it after ten minutes or so.

    As for for more points making wheels faster? Snake oil based grease for the hubs would make more difference IMHO.

    Rorschach
    Free Member

    if i were to own a set of 2kg 29er wheels with 120pt engagment, and another 1800g set of wheels with 40pt engagement – all else being equal – which would be the fastest / best?

    The red ones.

    Onzadog
    Free Member

    anagallis_arvensis – Member
    That’s not a moon, it’s a space station.
    FFS

    Well geeked sir, well geeked.

    poah
    Free Member

    So where do my spank oozy hubs with a 30T 12 degree engagement stand? Do I need to buy a heavier wheel with more teeth?

    amedias
    Free Member

    Coming from a trials background quick engagement can* be important and offer genuine benefits, but for XC and general trail riding it’s pretty much a non-issue.

    I went for years being massively picky about it because of trials riding, and it is occasionally nicer to have a quicker engaging hub on techy ‘ratchety’ bits of normal trails but basically at this point in my life racing XC, riding in the woods and on moors, its a feel thing not an actual performance thing, it will not make you quicker or improve your race times. I still prefer the feel of quicker pickup, but it’s just that, a preference for feel, I’m under no illusion that it will have any measurable benefit.

    As someone above said too, once you’re up to ~40+ POE its ‘enough’ to feel good anyway, and some (not clutch based hubs) of the quicker engaging hubs are less durable anyway due to smaller ratchet teeth and more prone to occasional mis-engagements.

    Basically “don’t worry about it”, which should probably be an auto response to a lot of your threads Kryton 😉

    *genuinely important, like the difference between cleaning a section and not.

    FunkyDunc
    Free Member

    if i were to own a set of 2kg 29er wheels with 120pt engagment, and another 1800g set of wheels with 40pt engagement – all else being equal – which would be the fastest / best?

    The ones with the best providence, made in Hebden Bridge

    special77
    Free Member

    I work in the shop that is NOBL’s official UK supplier and support partner and that video just doesn’t look right so I went and checked our demo bike and it does not do that, it genuinely is instant enough that I can’t visually see any movement before it engages.
    I am not going to say instant engagement is necessary but it’s nice to have and when cassettes are getting ever bigger then when you are in the largest rear sprocket the less degrees of movement before it engages is nice.
    Weight wise they sure aren’t the lightest but with the new alloy freehub body it’s not too bad especially as it’s at the centre of the wheel. I don’t see this level of attention to detail with respect to weight when it comes to tyre choice amongst most riders and that is where it will make a far bigger difference.
    The real feature of these husb is the reduction in drag when freewheeling, how silent they are and how fast they roll. I am not going to say zero drag as that would be ideal for a perpetual motion generator but isn’t realistic when hubs and bearings have seals but it really is significantly less spinning in a jig or a built bike.
    The sprag clutch is designed to be a lifetime unit so should never need to replace axles or sprags etc like you would with pawls and springs. The bearings are ceramic as standard and come with a warranty unlike most bearings in any bike part really.
    To make ever lighter hubs manufacturers are using ever smaller bearings that just don’t last that long. When you have small XD drivers and a large axle to take a 12mm axle then the bearings are so small they need replacing very often. We are replacing DT Swiss freehub bearings so often it’s not funny and the lighter 240s hubs the main hub bearings don’t last that much longer. Larger bearings will run faster and last longer in my experience.
    The NOBL front hub is a 15mm specific affair so significantly lighter than the ONYX version.

    NOBL themselves, like us, will build onto any quality hub such as Hope, DT Swiss, Industry Nine, Project 321 etc etc

    Onzadog
    Free Member

    Interesting feedback. Do they have any plans to make a minidriver freehub?

    Rorschach
    Free Member

    I’m not sure you’re allowed to astroturf and bad mouth competitors products (some would call BS too) quite so openly without it being an advert on here.Could be wrong though.

    sarpullido
    Free Member

    I ride single speed and love the instant engagement of Onyx hub on low speed technical terrain. It does make a big difference. It is also a very strong hub and gives me lots of confidence. Don’t care much about the extra weight in centre of wheel.
    For different less techy terrain I wouldn’t care much about a fast engagement.
    What are those NOBL hubs? Just recently heard of them. Similar to Onyx?

Viewing 39 posts - 1 through 39 (of 39 total)

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