Haven't read all of this thread, but just want to say that many thousands of innocent civilians have died and their lives are just the same as the hundreds of British soldiers.

All this rubbish about democracy, just because we live in a so called democratic country doesnt mean we should allow a bunch of muslims to protest in a place that they know will cause outrage and upset, just because they say they have a right to protest, what a load of tosh. It will not do any good, to let them go ahead with this march. And because there have been comments about this group does not mean we are labeling or catorgorizing all muslims as trouble makers and extremists it si also not being rasist. A muslim country would never allow such a march based on Christian or Jewish beliefs.

"A bunch of Muslims" – this is what I'm talking about – we constantly refer to them as if they are different to other humans.

Going on the content in some of the posts me thinks this thread has run its course 😥

Some of the comments are just ludicrous. Going by similar logic the best response to the IRA would have been to nuke the Vatican.

[Going by similar logic the best response to the IRA would have been to nuke the Vatican]

You might be onto something there…

Haven't read all of this thread, but just want to say that many thousands of innocent civilians have died and their lives are just the same as the hundreds of British soldiers.

Indeed, and the majority as I understand have been caused by muslims on muslims.
But don't take this to mean that I am condoning this country's action.

Many may have been not directly at the hands of our soldiers, but it is impossible to separate the effects of various militia being in our pay and control, elements being supported and funded by us and other covert operations which we will never even hear of.

[muslims on muslims]
Are you allowed to say that?

Ernie; prior to the European/British occupation of Iraq, it had been a number of small city states or Caliphates, Iraq as we know it came into existence at the end of the Ottoman empire, my point being to Junkyard that it was not a democratic country.The "National Assembly" was a collection of unelected warlords favourites and landowners factors sent to do their Master's bidding.

Glenp; The IRA were fighting in what they see as their own country,Iran are getting involved in a war in a country which hates them and was at war with them fairly recently,all to kill "westerners." They are doing this with the long-term aim of ensuring Iraq is under their influence once the West leaves. You will need a better comparison.

Peace and love to all…

Do you think we'll get to 10 pages?

I wasn't searching for a perfect comparison that stands scrutiny on every level, merely saying that some people's rantings are as illogical and dumb and nuking the vatican.

Iran's agenda is not to "kill westerners". They want us off their doorstep, understandably. So would you if you were Iranian.

[They want us off their doorstep, understandably.]

HMMM!
Platform… Attack…

Ernie; prior to the European/British occupation of Iraq, it had been a number of small city states or Caliphates, Iraq as we know it came into existence at the end of the Ottoman empire, my point being to Junkyard that it was not a democratic country.The "National Assembly" was a collection of unelected warlords favourites and landowners factors sent to do their Master's bidding.

Yes, despite not being a history teacher, I am fully aware that Iraq is a very recently created country. In fact, the tale-tell signs are the lots of nice straight lines which form much of it borders :

Interestingly enough, those nice straight lines/borders were decided by a British colonial administrator, who's name escapes me, shortly before he died of malaria (or some other tropical disease) So yes, Iraq and all it's borders, were created by the British – which clearly flies in the face of your suggestion that Iraq's problems are historical and nothing at all to do with Britain.

And your comment that Iraq has never, quote : "NEVER had any form of Democracy" also flies in the face of the facts. Iraq has most certainly had some form of democracy in the past – as has already been pointed out, Iraq had an elected assembly as early as the 1920s, and had elections in which opposition parties could freely contest, as recently as June 1954.

EDIT : I repeat my claim that if Iraq has experienced a lack of democracy in the past, then this largely due to the fact that it did not serve Britain's best interests – don't forget that Britain supported Saddam to the hilt. So don't go around saying that it has nothing to do with us, and the lack of democracy is all their fault.

the majority as I understand have been caused by muslims on muslims.

Most Muslim deaths in Afghanistan have been caused by Muslims ?

Either, you believe that US and British forces have being do nothing for the last 9 years or,
you believe had most US and British soldiers are Muslim…………which one is it ?

Theres an old German World War II saying

"When the English fire, we duck"
"When we fire, the English duck"
"When the Americans fire, everyone ducks"

Quack.

Read this for a start, then make another statement

Jesus, can we just stick to wiki- it helps us form opinions quicker 🙄

Either, you believe that US and British forces have being do nothing for the last 9 years or,
you believe had most US and British soldiers are Muslim…………which one is it ?

I don't believe in either of those statements. So you would appear to be incorrect in your assertion.

I don't believe in either of those statements

O…K ……….. so maybe you believe that US and British forces have been very busy for the last 9 years, but that Al Qadia and the Taliban have being even busier, and have in fact managed to kill more people than the combined US and British forces – is that it ?

BTW, do you also believe that most of the 100,000+ deaths in Iraq were also carried out by Muslims ?
If that's the case, I can't imagine why the US government constantly tries to play down the civilian casualties.

This reminds of those who try to argue that all the atrocities committed by the Nazis during WW2, were if fact committed by the Soviets, the partisan, etc. …..and of course 6 million Jews never died – and those that did, were killed by the advancing Soviet army …. or whatever

Righto.
This reminds me of those who resort to ridiculous hyperbole, so I'll leave you to it.
But before I do I'll leave you the Today programme link http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/default.stm about 1hr10 minutes in on iplayer for the relevant interview.

Ernie; fact remains, Iraq has never had a democratic government, see my earlier statement about the members of the assembly. What exactly did we carve Iraq out of? Oh yes; the Ottoman empire.Iraq was partitioned on tribal grounds, with a nod to a strategic layout.I would imagine the borders were not properly recognised by anybody in the middle east till the formation of the Jewish state.We were in the country for what, 50 years? Hardly makes it a member of the commonwealth does it? As for backing Saddam,we were not supporting Democracy by doing that.I stand by the suggestion Iraq has no claim on Britain.Oh, and the 1954 election was boycotted by a number of parties over claims of corruption and vote rigging.But I am sure you were aware of this before you used it as an example of a free election.Were women allowed to vote in this democratic election?
Allow me to modify my original statement, Iraq has little or no experience of democracy for one reason or another. (I will give you 30-40 years out of recorded history)Shall we agree to disagree? I fully accept I will never win an arguement with a Marxist (Although I AM interested in what it is you think we owe these Countries.)

in other related news, the islam 4 uk website is top notch comedy if nothing else! (keeps crashing due to volume of traffic!) I quite liked the buckingham mosque….

.We were in the country for what, 50 years?

Oh right I see how many years do we need to interfere and meddle in the state we created for it to be our responsibility?
Genuine question how many years then?

I AM interested in what it is you think we owe these Countries

I suggest we should try and fix the damage we did/contributed to. If I wreck your house should I try and rebuild it for you or should I just leave it wrecked as I was only there for a weekend?
Ian Munro
Re today programme he was worse on Radio 5 live IMHO – was on about 7:50 if you want to hear that pod cast if available. Yes they are an odious group I don’t think anyone on here has said they support them have they? Again freedom of speech is specifically for the people we oppose the most what do you suggest? If the state likes you and agrees with your protest then you can protest? Is that democrcacy in action

Should be on page 5 soon!!!

It's a sad reflection that many of us think that these people who are going to achieve absolutely nothing but to enrage the majority of average Brits (which is exactly what they want) by marching through this small town is acceptable purely due to collateral damage done mainly by Americans.
They are welcome to remember the civilian losses in a place more appropriate than Wooton Basset (Baghdad, Kabul, Bradford?) They may have a legal entitlement to march but it doesn't make it right. strictly speaking, labour acted within the laws in sending the forces to war. Again, doesn't make it right. Nevermind what would happen if you tried this in Saudi or Iran (they're currently killing quite a few of their own people), think what would happen in the US, it would be mayhem.

home secretary just off the phone and said he'd ban a march taking place

strictly speaking, labour acted within the laws in sending the forces to war.

Highly debatable.

duckman – for a teacher your punctuation etc is very poor, as is your grasp of history it seems.

Nevermind what would happen if you tried this in Saudi or Iran

Arghh not again? So you would prefer us to act more like the Saudi or Iranian governments then?

Backhander we are better than Saudi or Iran and allow protest especially for those we oppose as we are a democracy. To prevent them marching is anti-democratic, authoritarian and against free speech…the very reasons we criticise repressive foreign regimes.

Nevermind what would happen if you tried this in Saudi or Iran

Arghh not again? So you would prefer us to act more like the Saudi or Iranian governments then?
Don't be so selective please grumm. The point was not saudi or iran but that countries who are deemed by most to be more tolerant than these types would also not put up with it (such as the US).
Junkyard, I know that you're right. However, the fact that these people would do this in WB is going to do more damage than good. It the big order of right and wrong this feels very very wrong.

I agree it does feel wrong, is provactive and in poor taste but they have the right to do this. It will not help their cause one bit so why worry …it just makes them look like nutters and allows people to further misunderstand /fear Islam. In fact if you wanted to encourage Islamaphobia this is a very good way of doing it.

And by making people less likely to listen to moderate Muslims they strengthen their own position.It will be banned on grounds of public safety.Maybe the local dss could arrange a claims interview with Mr Chowdrey(?) on the relevant morning.

This reminds me of those who resort to ridiculous hyperbole, so I'll leave you to it.

But there's no "ridiculous hyperbole" here, I'm not exaggerating anything.

In response to glenp's post, you very clearly suggested that the "majority" of the "thousands of innocent civilians" who have died, have been killed by Muslims. So don't leave it at that, either back up your claim, or withdraw it – where's the problem ? 😕

.

the 1954 election was boycotted by a number of parties over claims of corruption and vote rigging.But I am sure you were aware of this before you used it as an example of a free election

I gave it as an example that your claim, that Iraq has, quote : "NEVER had any form of Democracy" was a false one. And as far as I am aware, the June 1954 were not "boycotted by a number of parties over claims of corruption and vote rigging" (the later ones were) In fact I believe that the opposition parties made significant gains.

Allow me to modify my original statement

Yeah that's fine, I don't have any problem with that at all – we all occasionally, on reflection, like to reconsider what we have said. But presumably you are not modifying your original statement because I was wrong when I suggested that Iraq have had some form of democracy in the past ?

I fully accept I will never win an arguement with a Marxist

I assume the "Marxist" reference was just there to have a little dig at me, on account that you were running of ideas/things to say. How is whether I am a Marxist, Tory, Fascist, Liberal, whatever, relevant to the 'facts' ? But anyway, that's not important – I'm more interested in why do you want to "win" an argument ? I'm not interested in trying to win an argument – an invariably futile excise, when it comes to politics and personal belief systems. We come to our own conclusions, based on our own personal life experiences. Not because we have "lost or won" arguments – specially ones on an internet forum. I'm simply interested in an exchange of ideas – and also seeing how well mine hold up.

It will be banned on grounds of public safety.

I'm sure that's the same reason they give for banning protests in China etc.

Why cant they just fek off home?

because they were born here joe 🙄

And by making people less likely to listen to moderate Muslims they strengthen their own position.

How ?
And how long do we need to be in a country before we have responsibility?

Forgetting the rights and wrongs about the wars etc look at it like this. If we protested in their countries at their "brave" warriors who use bags full of explosives to blow commuters up on trains or fly into buildings etc etc, we would be taken prisoner, taken as a hostage, tied to a chair and blind-folded to have our heads taken off – or we would be killled on the spot and used as propoganda!!!!! And we are supposed to allow these extremists protest in OUR COUNTRY!!!!!!!! Disgrace, an absolute disgrace!

1/ Pull the troops out.
2/ Ban Mosques in the UK
3/ Stop paying benefits to millions who live here.
4/ Use the money saved to find alternatives to oil.
5/ Let the Jews and Arabs have a scrap an almighty scrap.

Thats it, job done the whole things fixed and we can start talking about something more intresting than these beardy tits.

starseven – Member
1/ Pull the troops out.
2/ Ban Mosques in the UK
3/ Stop paying benefits to millions who live here.
4/ Use the money saved to find alternatives to oil.
5/ Let the Jews and Arabs have a scrap an almighty scrap.

Thats it, job done the whole things fixed and we can start talking about something more intresting than these beardy tits.

Oh my….. 😯