Yesterday we went out for a meal and were sat at the bar waiting to be seated. One of our girls (3.5yrs old) was sat on a high bar stool and somehow fell backwards, landing straight on her head.

After the screaming subsided, we checked her out (mother-in-law ex teaching assistant, wife first aid trained, sister-in-law works with children) so between us we knew what to check for and she seemed fine, running around and laughing etc.

However, on the way home (when things were quiet enough to talk/think) we decided that perhaps, on balance, we should ring the out of hours doctor (mainly because we wouldn’t have been able to sleep with worry that something might happen in the night).

Anyway, they decided that she needed to go to A&E and my wife got a massive grilling (enough to have her almost in tears) about how it happened (like they didn’t believe her) and why she didn’t go in straight away.

BTW she is fine today, almost better natured than she was 😉

*phones social services*

My daughter (who is 2 1/2 now) has been to A&E twice with head injuries. The first was an unexplained (at the the time) huge lump on her head, which later turned out to be a bleed due to birth trauma.
The second was due to her pulling a dining chair over (trying to climb up the back of it) and ending up with a whack on the forehead when it landed on her.
We’ve now been told that if we take her to A&E again with a head injury they will be reporting us to social services as 3 (unexplained) head injuries will trigger a child protection enquiry.

sue the bar for having bar stools too high for a child to safely sit on.

MY kid fell flat on his face onto concrete once. I was sat on a fence and he tried to copy me..
I gave him a cuddle (and took a photo).

I’d have gone straight down to A & E myself, never fanny around with head injuries cos you don’t know whats going on under the surface.

That said I remember talking to a friend of mine who’s son had fallen down the stairs, banged his head and was being sick. They seemed to think that a spoonful of calpol and cuddle would be fine.

These days, whatever you did would have been wrong in some way.

OOH doctors will always send you to A&E if there is the remotest possibility of paediatric head injury, and A&E will usually make you feel inadequate or worse for something you did or didn’t do.

At the end of the day, you had a nagging doubt, so you did the right thing. Don’t beat yourself up about it (social services don’t like that kind of thing).

To be fair yossarian, a spoonful of calpol and cuddle seems to sort most things out. Even now I’m in my 40’s

The grilling is normal with injured children, and is only right. When he was younger fast young git got checked over a few times. Mum and Dad were carefully questioned. One day the GP had a new doc under training assisting. He took the opportunity to give a two-year-old FYG a thorough inspection, commented – ‘Ah, the right number of bruises’ about his legs. Meaning enough for an active child pushing his limits, not too many or too big.

You can’t win with them, if you take them they say you shouldn’t and if you didn’t they say you should.

You did the right thing anyway.

yossarian – Member

I’d have gone straight down to A & E myself, never fanny around with head injuries cos you don’t know whats going on under the surface.

+1

Personally I’d go to A&E for any reasonably hard smack to the head with a child.
I don’t think you’re wrong for making the judgement you did on the day though, your call and you did the right thing when you had some doubts.

The grilling is commonplace. I treat it as something you have to go through so accept it in good nature. Sometimes they do get a bit personal though so I find waving my fist in their face makes them back off.

You can’t win with them, if you take them they say you shouldn’t and if you didn’t they say you should.

It’s all part of our training….

DrP

Wot they sed re: the head injury itself. Falling from a height taller than you onto a solid floor is fairly bad, particularly with kids who’se skulls are fairly soft.

Also, I’d rather every parent got a grilling on child protection issues than every a&e nurse/doctor took the injuries presented at face value, tbh.

Problem with kids these days is they don’t spent enough time outside unsupervised getting injured. Then when you do turn up with A&E is stands out like a sore thumb and you get labelled as a child basher. In my day, we were falling out of trees and concussing ourselves every week, just part of growing up.

However, on the way home (when things were quiet enough to talk/think) when it was less likely to disrupt our nice day out, we decided that perhaps, on balance, we should ring the out of hours doctor…

Sounds to me like you’re feeling guilty (quite rightly) for not acting more decisively, and for some reason you feel affronted that a medical professional chose to question your motives on the basis that you chose to ignore a head injury so you could enjoy the meal you’d no doubt been looking forward to.

They probably felt – quite rightly – that if you put your meal before your child’s health, there was a chance that you were less than honest in your description of events.

You might think I’m having a bit of a pop – I’m not really, I’m just amazed that someone would make a bad decision and then feel like a victim for being quizzed by a medical professional who was doing their job rather well by the sound of it!

When our eldest was growing up Sheffield Children’s staff joked that we should have our own seats in the waiting room – he just suffered from pockets of strong gravity!

Any head trauma is a trip to A&E, the kids’ well being is more important than a grilling from Social Services.

(SCH were impressed when he arrived by helicopter after falling out of a tree next to Ladybower – he still has his HeliTed 5 years on!)

So hard to tell. We have two boys (2 and 3) who love to wrestle so they’re always knocking themselves and covered in bruises. They’ve both had pretty big whacks to the head at various times and each time we’ve been unsure what to do. Generally we just keep an eye on them and watch out for signs of concussion, fortunately we’ve not had any issues yet and are yet to make the trip to A&E.

FWIW it sounds to me like you did the right thing, it’s not like you made her wait in pain while you had lunch! Precautionary measure was a good call if you thought it was necessary – there’s absolutely no need to take risks or put yourselves through undue worry.

As for the A&E staff, I’d like to think they have pretty good instincts and realised you were OK but they still have to be seen to be doing ‘the right thing’. Unfortunately in this day and age ‘the right thing’ seems to be not to trust a parent with the care of their children, this is a policy issue not an individual nurse/doctor.

Yeah the way we were thinking was that we didn’t want to waste anyone’s time if they just said ‘don’t be daft, it is just a bump’ (we had checked her eyes (dilating/tracking) she hadn’t been sick, still had an appetite, was stable on her feet, she could remember what she did and what else she had done during the day, wasn’t cold or clammy, hadn’t lost consciousness, wasn’t sleepy).

dont forget if your kid is one of those that’s quite clingy or comfortable to cuddle strangers as professionals its our duty to assume they’ve been sexually abused. as dr p says…. its all in the training.

on a slightly more serious note:

its safer to assume you’re all bad parents and work backwards from there, imagine if they missed something? you’ve seen the news when social workers etc dont notice abuse and somebody ends up dead…. the job they’ve trained for, worked too many hours for with too much accountability for not enough pay, somehow stick with despite everyone saying ‘i couldn’t do your job’ and deal with things on a daily basis that would render a normal person in tears or shock… well that jobs at risk if they dont err on the side of caution.

Shib – reckon you’re being a bit harsh there.

Seems like you did fine to me and yes we will question you about what happened. It appears awful, insensitive and rude for the parents. It’s not nice for us to do but it is done for a reason. Of course some ask the questions in a way which makes it sound far worse and that we don’t believe you.

Problem with kids these days is they don’t spent enough time outside unsupervised getting injured. Then when you do turn up with A&E is stands out like a sore thumb and you get labelled as a child basher. In my day, we were falling out of trees and concussing ourselves every week, just part of growing up.

No that’s not the problem. The problem is we see kids who have been harmed and we need to protect kids from being harmed further. Back in your day and not really that long ago it was as ‘not really our job’ there was a huge case that changed all this which is why now we’re expected to ask so many questions.

Obviously you can’t go running to the doctor with every bump and scrape but with a bang on the head you need to be very careful as internal bleeding on the brain can be fatal .

25 years ago my son complained of a headache which got progressively worse until he was in and out of consciousness , we took him to hospital where he was stabilised and taken by ambulance to another hospital where he was operated on but was in a coma for 2 months afterwards and ended up braindamaged and unable to live a normal life . The cause turned out to have been a fall while playing football at school where he banged his head , the school didn’t bother to tell us which caused delay in his treatment and worsened his outcome considerably .
I am told his case is why now schools always send a note home with any pupil who has banged their head .

Took me 5 days to take my daughter to A&E after an ice skating accident. Turned out she had broke her wrist. 😳

To my defense in those five days she had spent two days on the BMX track. ‘kin nails.

If you’ve ever trained in First AId, you’ll know that the rule is wherever a blow to the head is involved, it’s a trip to A&E every time, even if there is no obvious injury. With a child I’d say it’s even more important.

Obviously if it’s just a slight bump then it may be overkill but a significant fall like that is potentially major trouble. It can take 24 hours for concussion to set in.

If it happens in a public place and/or you feel uncomfortable about the potential for a grilling, see if you can get an independent witness to back up your story.

Personnally I think the grilling was justified. HAd you acted immediately then it probably wouldn’t have been.

The kids’ well being is more important than a grilling from Social Services.

Hear, hear – after all your children are your most treasured possession. Aren’t they??

Problem with kids these days is they don’t spent enough time outside unsupervised getting injured. Then when you do turn up with A&E is stands out like a sore thumb and you get labelled as a child basher. In my day, we were falling out of trees and concussing ourselves every week, just part of growing up.

That would make loads of sense if the whole multiple visits to A&E triggering social services was a new thing. It happened to me when I was a kid in the early 80s too.

For my parents it wasn’t a problem – parents just pointed them out into the garden where I was running around like a loon, and they immediately understood what was up.

Ramsey Neil – Not quite what to say but your post deserves more than a nod as I read it. In the context of the OP’s incident it illustrates the dangers of head injuries. For you as a family I can’t imagine how you must have felt at the time and how profound the changes to yours and your sons life must have been in the years that followed.

she is fine today, almost better natured than she was

Your daughter or your wife?

I’d say that I’d always take my child to A&E when they’d had a head injury, but in reality I suspect I’d have done the same as you. The grilling is something you have to accept as them doing their job – IME it doesn’t take them long to work out what’s what (on which basis it does sound like they went a bit OTT with you). Though would you rather they just ignored abuse, in order to not occasionally upset the adults?

Oh, and sorry to hear your story, RN – and thanks for contributing, as it is worth being reminded about how serious even a seemingly innocuous head injury can be.

If you’ve ever trained in First AId, you’ll know that the rule is wherever a blow to the head is involved, it’s a trip to A&E every time

You say that but my sister-in-law has had very recent first aid training directly around children and she didn’t seem to think so. In fact, their 3yr old fell off a kitchen unit (onto her head) over Christmas and she didn’t even seem that concerned, never mind think she should have gone to hospital.

Shib – reckon you’re being a bit harsh there.

Yeah I think so to. If she had *any* signs of concussion we would have gone straight away. But she had *no* signs of it and we initially thought we would be told we were wasting their time. And my fajitas were going cold.

Your daughter or your wife?

The daughter – she still is remembering it all too which is good. Staying at grannies this afternoon (my wife took the morning off) rather than going to nursery as she normally does on a MOnday – just so she can have one on one observation.

johndoh, do you and your family members always store your kids on high surfaces?

kids belong on the floor, or in the cage/cupboard of shame (still on the floor), how else are they to learn who’s leader of the pack?!

Theres a lot of people on here saying any bump on the head should result in a trip to A&E. NHS Direct doesnt agree with that.

It gives very specific circumstances when you should visit A&E, falling from more than your own height is one of them though.

I find NHS direct pretty useful for working out when something is wortha visit to a&e and when it isnt.

https://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/CheckSymptoms/SATs/HeadInjury.aspx?action=whofor#progress

Any head trauma is a trip to A&E

I’m not sure you really mean that. My kids bang their heads twice a week or so. I’m sure everyone’s do. I do too for that matter. So you have to draw the line between a bump and ‘trauma’.

The question is where’s the line?

As for the A&E staff, I’d like to think they have pretty good instincts and realised you were OK but they still have to be seen to be doing ‘the right thing’. Unfortunately in this day and age ‘the right thing’ seems to be not to trust a parent with the care of their children, this is a policy issue not an individual nurse/doctor.

Exactly this. Mrs FD came back from work last week after operating on a young baby with a broken arm. She had to get Police and Social involved. Unless the accident can be verified ie a trip at a swimming pool etc, docs HAVE to report it as part of procedure. Mrs FD felt terrible having to do it, as her gut instinct told her that the parent was being truful.

Damned if they do, damened if they dont these days.

“Your daughter or your wife?”
The daughter.

I knew I should have put a smiley 😳

What investigations were done at a&e? I suspect with no adverse head injury symptoms they sat you in for a while and discharged you with advice, as it doesn’t warrant ct scan.

Given the list of symptoms you were aware to watch out for in the first place, do you feel in hindsight that a&e was necessary? I don’t think I’d have gone unless concerning symptoms arose, but that’s for the individual to decide. At work, however, (paramedic) you’d have been recommended to seek further assessment at a&e, mainly to prolong the time you are in contact with medical help, and possibly to address child protection concerns depending on the circumstances (not in your case….).

If you’ve ever trained in First AId, you’ll know that the rule is wherever a blow to the head is involved, it’s a trip to A&E every time

Pretty sure that’s not the case but I’m not first aid trained.

Would not be upset by staff asking me- it is obvious why they do this.
Would employ some judgement on what to do but probably be over cautious with a kid and even more so if it was not mine.

Sounds like a case of “communication skills” lacking than anything else. As has been said by the Professional Medics, this kind of thing seems to be standard MO these days.

I took my son in to A&E last year, couple of weeks before his 2nd birthday after he ran into a see-saw at the local park and ricocheted onto the back of his head. He was in lots of pain and couldn’t walk so we went quite quickly (to A&E) to get his legs and head checked out. Turned out he had broken his leg, nothing wrong with his head though! Anyway, I fully expected to be grilled/visited by SS in hospital. However nothing of the sort happened, I was asked what happened by the Triage Nurse, the Pead. Nurse and the Pead. themself without ever once feeling interogated. In retrospect it was certainly a way for them to assess whether my son was a suspected child abuse victim, but I only realised that much later. It was the way the questions were asked and the manner in which the information was gathered that was the key.

do you feel in hindsight that a&e was necessary?

As the OP – we didn’t think it was necessary but had a nagging doubt so rang the Out of Hours doctor and he told us we should go. This was despite us answering no to all of his questions (ie ‘did she lose consciousness?’)