Fratello disc looks good http://road.cc/content/news/142438-just-condor-fratello-disc

I doubt I’ll be after another steel road frame for quite some time, but I’d probably get an Amaro. He welded in a new stay on my Pego after it rusted through, immaculate job and not easy to spot which one was replaced.

Maybe over somewhat budget 🙂

2nd hand Indy Fab Club Racer float your boat?

Maybe over somewhat budget

Hey when your watching a car programme you dont want to watch wall to wall Super-minis do you

The Indy is a smidge too small on the TT. Your falls 😯

speak to mark reilly at nerve bikes, he is x enigma guy. he is making me a nice columbus life frame with disc brakes. hope to get it soon!!!! should be 4lbs max

Not meaning any disrespect Hora, and I do enjoy your threads. But you haven’t got anything like enough experience of road bikes steel, carbon whatever to make a proper decision about what you’ll like. Just get something in the right size, in a colour you like from a reputable manufacturer. Riding a bike is about getting out there and having fun. Once you’ve got a few miles and some experience you’ll know more. All this internet angst is just a distraction thats turning what should be fun and simple, into an endless confused problem.

I hear you and I agree to a degree. The PlanetX was bought mostly for its value and the full Ultegra. I have wheels/tyres that I like – all I need now is something alittle bit more special, in a nice colour. It took me a fair while to figure out saddle height/bars and my core but now I know it its easier/quicker to get there.

– not something thats getting on for a mountain bike steel frame weight

What GT72 was saying, you’re not going to get many ‘lightweight’ steel frames, they’re all essentialy the same tubesets just joined in slightly different ways, stay bridges etc will tweak stifness but it’s diminishing returns Vs the basic tubesets.

Why not just get a more mid-range carbon or aluminum bike like the CAAD/Supersix/Synapse, a steel bikes not going to be stiffer than the PX up front?

Geetee, I wouldn’t agree about frames not varying at lower price levels. Ride a Pacer and an Equilibrium, quite different in every way Imo. What suits the rider is another matter though.

a steel bikes not going to be stiffer than the PX up front?

well that depends on the head tube size and fork diameter plus using a good fork.
my chesini:

plenty stiff enough for a 65kg rider. 🙂

All this internet angst is just a distraction thats turning what should be fun and simple, into an endless confused problem.

Nicely summed up.

Why not just get a more mid-range carbon or aluminum bike like the CAAD/Supersix/Synapse, a steel bikes not going to be stiffer than the PX up front?

This. You liked the Defy. Just go buy one and get on with the riding.

Kona Kapu. Kona make some lovely steel bikes and it is nice to see they have brought back a non-fixed steel bike.

My Paddy Waggon is low end steel – Reynolds 520 equivalent, but the geometry is excellent. It does of course have an Enigma monocoque carbon fork and custom wheels and carbon finishing kit, but underneath all that is a simple steel frame that is a sublime (if slightly springy) ride.

Higher end steel buys more lightness, but stiffness is down to tube diameters, so steel frames will, all else being equal, tend to ride very similarly for the same geometry.

I’d personally buy a Pegoretti Responsorium.

+1 MrBlobby

Get a bike that fits, probably aluminium frame & carbon forks for that budget and ride the damn thing.

I liked the Defy but it felt like something a mountain biker would ride. Too sit up and beg(?)

I liked the Defy but it felt like something a mountain biker would ride. Too sit up and beg(?)

Go down a frame size, longer stem, slam it. Or TCR.

plenty stiff enough for a 65kg rider

Yes but this is Hora, 50% more weight and princess and the pea bike criticality 😉

I liked the Defy but it felt like something a mountain biker would ride. Too sit up and beg(?)

Then Supersix or TCR, never ridden the latter but the front on the Supersix is rock solid and Giant published data a year or so back which supossedly showed they were slightly better again. And I’d hazzard that any mid range carbon fame from a big manufacturer will be up there.

The ‘sportive geometry’ won’t hold you back, it’s just different. I prefer racing bikes for the same reason I like sports cars, I’m not Lewis Hamilton or Cav, but that doesn’t mean I don’t apreciate the stiffness/handling even at lower speeds, they’re just ‘fun’ (but less comfortable than say a Golf-R or Audi S4 or whatever the STW ‘making progress estate car of the week’ is).

If I had £700 burning a hole in my pocket, I suspect I would go and talk to Bob Jackson. I have one, got it resprayed a few years ago and kept being asked about my new bike on Audaxes. Its at least 20 years old, 531, and just is *right*.

Other frame builders are available – looking at the options is part of the fun isn’t it?

I’m not entirely clear what specific ‘purpose’ you are looking for, but would suggest that well built, nicely painted, classic lines etc will stand you in good stead.

725 equilibrium is a lovely bike. although for £700 you could do a lot better.

why 1 1/8th external?

Geetee, I wouldn’t agree about frames not varying at lower price levels. Ride a Pacer and an Equilibrium, quite different in every way Imo. What suits the rider is another matter though.

Far be it for me to suggest to anyone that their experience of reality is flawed. The Pacer frame is quite a bit heavier than the Genesis, about 300g difference (1.8kg vs 2.1kg). If you’ve got very different wheels and tyres between the two bike then I guess they could end up feeling quite different.

The wheels will make a big difference to the ride feel of any bike. I’ve spent the last few months riding my training/commuter bike with Dura Ace C35 clinchers (don’t ask), and just recently switched back to shop handbuilt H-Plus Sons. They are 300g heavier than the C35s and I really feel this on the climbs and pulling away from lights but they are also quite a bit comfier as well. I would run the C35s every day of the week but the side walls are starting to wear.

If you don’t mind disc brakes, Donhou’s new Signature off the peg frame floats my boat. Especially the paint job on the down tube. Struggling to post a link on smartphone.

Oh yes, you would need one of those scratch cards as well.

why 1 1/8th external?

I miss a frame with a 1 1/8 King. I know its ‘theres newer and better stuff out there’ but it goes back to why steel; ‘because’. 😀

I’m never going to be chain-ganging, never going to race, never going to be at the front of anything on roadbike. As such I’d like to have a niceish bike, relax, enjoy and not chase grams too much. I’ve had some great rides over up/down the tops around Kirklees/Calderdale- well especially Huddersfield (and the views*). It helps fitness but also- it keeps you feeling sane. Thats what I want out of road bikes.

*Head down banging out the miles means you miss alot of what your riding through.

You my friend, need to order an Anderson:

[url=https://flic.kr/p/nkNQtz]IMG_2403[/url] by Anderson Custom Bicycles, on Flickr

Don’t worry about the price. All you need to do is deposit £700 in a high interest savings account and by the time it’s ready the net effect of compound interest will have taken care of the astronimical cost.

Anderson Custom Bikes on Flickr

Too sit up and beg(?)

Head down banging out the miles means you miss alot of what your riding through.

Make your mind up!

Starting to sound like you’d be better on a flat bar’d hybrid if you just want one position but the drops are too low and the tops are too sit up and beg.

Head down banging out the miles means you miss alot of what your riding through

– misquote. I’m talking about the mindset. I’m not riding a roadbike to beat a personal best time, race a mate or go 110% (hence the head down banging out the miles). More- a good pace but easier enough that I can take everything in every so often. Not head down going cross-eyed with effort.

If I went the frame only- what carbon forks are good for <£130. ITM? Easton are too much aren’t they?

Too sit up and beg(?)

Oh please! Don’t swallow the hype.

My Defy has 8 cm saddle to bar drop. Same as my race bike. Get a decent bike that fits you properly. Material is much less important than geometry and fit. Put the miles in. Decide what aspect you’d like to improve; weight, handling, position, fitness…

what carbon forks are good for <£130.

None. get some Richey WCS road forks £230 from bike discount.

A “sit up and beg bike” earlier…

You need to be careful about buying a road frame without fork and then adding an after market fork. It’s easy to do but you need to know what trail the frame was designed around.

It’s pretty rare you buy a road frame without a fork. Most manufacturers will be able to supply a good fork far cheaper than you can buy the equivalent.

But if you do then options from Columbus or Dedaccia are usually a good bet. The Columbus Minimal is a good choice and between £120 and £95 if you shop around.

– misquote. I’m talking about the mindset. I’m not riding a roadbike to beat a personal best time, race a mate or go 110% (hence the head down banging out the miles). More- a good pace but easier enough that I can take everything in every so often. Not head down going cross-eyed with effort.

And yet you complain the Defy was too sit up and beg, WTF?!!!

Dragon again. I’m talking about my approach to a roadride I’m not talking about geometry. A road steady ride, cadience below Max.

Why Enigma when there are plenty of places quite close to home?:-

Field are great guys but probably over budget.

Steve Goff is well within budget (Skelmersdale).

Paul Hewitt (Leyland) can supply pretty much anything right up to full custom (and good for frame fitting). His welder comes from the nuclear industry and all frames are beautifully joined with internal argon gas purge (often only done for Ti frames).

Hora you’re just looking for the ‘goldilocks’ bike aren’t you. Nothing wrong with that. You can fine tune that feel quite a bit with additional spacers under the stem, bar shape and drop (go for shallow drop/compact bars), stem length and saddle position.

Some other consdierations for you:

Windy Millar Johny Cake – left field suggestion and quite a bit higher than your budget but thought I would suggestit.

So why bother with race geometry then, race bikes aren’t designed to be ridden slowly.

What does max cadence even mean? Cadence isn’t fixed or a hard limit.

I miss a frame with a 1 1/8 King. I know its ‘theres newer and better stuff out there’ but it goes back to why steel; ‘because

stop looking for a frame just to fit a bit of bling you have sitting in your spares box.

get something tigged and ‘modern’ oversize made out of decent tubing not stovepipe 531 in skinny tubed lugged construction thats harking back to the 70’s that weighs 22lb

with your ultegra bits and a decent wheelset your bike will be 8kg and ride really nicely if you buy something like the enigma.

ride it and stop posting on internet forums. I’m done on this thread, i just want to see the final bike shot now.

Bob Jackson,http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=487 and upgrade to 853 http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=487

That Windy Millar Johny Cake has ruined my lunch, what a god damn awful looking bike.

There aren’t two definitive sets of geometry right? Just like on a mountain bike – all the manufacturers dont use all the same angles with the same lengths. There are different styles within. I’d like a happy medium.

Again – I’m not going to ride the bike in anything to do with races or timed. Merely to get out and enjoy.

MrSmith- aye I’ll do that. Wanted a roadbike to ride around the edges of London at the crack of dawn this weekend but it’ll come. Patience.

There aren’t two definitive sets of geometry right?

They are all much of a muchness, road bikes with triangular frames have been around over 100 years, it’s all just tweaks here and there.

Merely to get out and enjoy

once you realise its not about the bike, that’ll be a whole lot easier.

with your ultegra bits and a decent wheelset your bike will be 8kg

Not impossible but not likely either. My Genesis 853 with Dura Ace 7900 groupset and 35 wheels weighs 9.1kg. I could get it down by taking the mudgaurds off and swaping out the finishing kit, but you’d end up with a £3500 bike to weigh materially less than 9kg.

They are all much of a muchness, road bikes with triangular frames have been around over 100 years, it’s all just tweaks here and there.

This in my view also is very true. There are differences in handling between my race bike and my training bike, but when you’re mostly riding in a straight line, you don’t feel them.

I think about the only time you’d be materially disadvantaged with the wrong geometry would be if you raced a crit’ on a touring or TT bike.

Oh and the Windy Millar – yes; gopping it is!

Windy Millar Johny Cake

personally I’m not keen on their graphics etc 😯