poisonspider

With the greatest respect to ‘most’ riders, I doubt they would be able to tell how a bike is going to ride based on the geometry numbers on paper, let alone the implications of ‘kinematics/dynamics’. I doubt many would even know what it meant never mind being able to predict it.

Yes, my point exactly. A classic example I saw myself was when CRC bought all the old Sunn stock. People would constantly ask what I thought of them and I (not on commision) would tell them they were horrible, but with a good spec. More often than not it was impossible to explain, and they buy the bike (returning soon after puzzled why their friends cheaper bikes felt better). Explaining that a lesser spec bike with better geometry could be a better bike was an almost impossible task with a lot of customers as the only thing they can quantify is the £££ “value” of the parts bolted to the bike, even if these expensive parts were temperamental, unreliable, proprietary etc …..hence my point about the Capra being bought purely on spec by a lot of people.

Yes a steep head angle = twitchy, long wheel base = stable, low BB = lower c.o.g, etc etc but the a half degree here and a whopping full degree there that separates many of the bikes in a specific genre, nah, don’t think so!

Plus, the static numbers are meaningless when you factor in suspension design and sag, rider size, rider ability to position themselves correctly etc.

The numbers matter, and give the best indication of how the bike will feel. A degree here or a degree there can be huge, same for 10,20,50,40mm differences in key measurements. It’s a far more useful thing to look at than what tyres or rear mech a bike has at any rate.

I’m currently wishing I had £3600 (yes, just a little over your budget) for this: http://www.freeborn.co.uk/specialized-enduro-expert-carbon-29-2015

Enduro 29er widely described as the bike that redefined what 29ers are capable of. They do it as an identical-spec 650B if you didnt want the big wheels, but having ridden one, I would.

When I first saw the Capra announced it struck me how close the geometry was to the Lapierre I’d just snapped in half and that bike was dog shit.

Not sure that’s a fair comparison either, the suspension design is completely different. Static numbers are meaningless (as a direct comparison alone).

That’s like saying all cars with the same wheel base and track width are going to drive the same! Nonsense.

hence my point about the Capra being bought purely on spec by a lot of people.

Not sure that’s true either.

Back to the magazine reviews argument. The consensus has been it’s a great riding bike AND it has a great spec.

Like I said, I doubt YT have the advertising clout to get all the magazines to say its a great bike if it wasn’t.

The 2014 Capra got 10/10 in MBR so I guess that must count for something – I’d assume the 2015 was better and the 2016 one better still?!

The ‘average frame and geometry’ has stayed the same, just that there’s now an Ali version.

poisonspider

Not sure that’s a fair comparison either, the suspension design is completely different. Static numbers are meaningless.

That’s like saying all cars with the same wheel base and track width are going to drive the same! Nonsense.

No, you’re assuming that the suspension design of a bike can overcome it’s shortcoming in geometry – it can’t. The Zesty/Spicy was too short in the top tube, too high in the bb so it lacked high speed stability and suffred terribly on high speed steeps.

If you’ve got a 140mm bike (Zesty) which lacks high speed stability with similar numbers to a 170mm then it tells me the 170mm bike won’t be very stable or confidence inspiring at the supposedly higher speeds it’s intended for.

poisonspider – Member

Back to the magazine reviews argument. The consensus has been it’s a great riding bike AND it has a great spec.

Like I said, I doubt YT have the advertising clout to get all the magazines to say its a great bike if it wasn’t.

Well first, it wasn’t anyone from YT who said that, but it was an illuminating remark. Also, YT are famous (notorious/infamous) for their “hospitality” towards visiting journos, so make of that what you will.

The other thing I said about magazine reviews is, some of these guys writing the reviews are no better or worse than you or me. I’ll say it again, when I saw some journalists riding it was rather eye opening. Now, I’ll go the other way and say some of them are super riders – I was lucky enough to get a day riding with Nico Baisin of Velovert while he was testing the new Focus Sam, and he’s a serious rider.

Northwind – Member

It’s a big unsubtle brick of a thing

You’re really not selling it 🙂

No, you’re assuming that the suspension design of a bike can overcome it’s shortcoming in geometry – it can’t. The Zesty/Spicy was too short in the top tube, too high in the bb so it lacked high speed stability and suffred terribly on high speed steeps.

If you’ve got a 140mm bike (Zesty) which lacks high speed stability with similar numbers to a 170mm then it tells me the 170mm bike won’t be very stable or confidence inspiring at the supposedly higher speeds it’s intended for.

Sorry JJ but I’m going to have to disagree again. (I’m not spoiling for an argument honest, I’m just not getting where you’re coming from)

If the two bikes had the same static geometry (which is what I believe you said) then the amount of travel/suspension design does play a big part. If you’ve got 170mm to play with at 35% sag you can slacken the dynamic angles more than a 140mm travel bike setup at probable 25% sag. Not to mention how progressive the travel is/isn’t.

The two bikes would ride completely differently.

The other thing I said about magazine reviews is, some of these guys writing the reviews are no better or worse than you or me.

In that case, how do we know we’re right and they’re wrong?

poisonspider

The two bikes would ride completely differently.

Yes they would. But not enough to overcome a fundamental flaw of having far too short a tt. If you have a DH bike with a 300mm top tube, it’s going to be a bitch to ride down stuff.

poisonspider

In that case, how do we know we’re right and they’re wrong?

I’m simply pointing out that there is questionable validity in a magazine or online review. You have to take it with a grain of salt, a reviewers opinion is subjective. Geometry is not. If some guy minces down a blue trail on a 160mm “Enduro weapon” then declares it a great bike, what use is that.

I’m simply pointing out that there is questionable validity in a magazine or online review.

Or a contributor on a forum perhaps?

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree.

If you’re suggesting the YT and the Zesty had similar geometry and the Zesty was pants downhill, therefore the YT must also be pants downhill, why has it pretty much universally been applauded for it DH abilities? I simply don’t accept that’s because the magazines have been bribed or because the reviewers are crap bike riders.

poisonspider – Member

I’m simply pointing out that there is questionable validity in a magazine or online review.

Or a contributor on a forum perhaps?

Don’t be so hard on yourself 🙂

poisonspider

If you’re suggesting the YT and the Zesty had similar geometry and the Zesty was pants downhill, therefore the YT must also be pants downhill, why has it pretty much universally been applauded for it DH abilities? .

Find me a recent “Enduro” bike that hasn’t been universally praised for it’s DH abilities. Forget the Zesty, take the Spicy, which I converted my Zesty into. There were so many rave reviews about that bike, universally lauded for, well, everything. And yet I’ve yet to meet anyone who’s opinion I valued in any way who didn’t hate their Lapierre.

I simply don’t accept that’s because the magazines have been bribed or because the reviewers are crap bike riders

Let’s not fudge things together here. Not all journalists are great riders. Not all reviews are impartial. If you’ve been flown across Europe, put up in a luxury hotel, plied with fine food, and all the coke and hookers you can eat then ferried around awesome trail centres then you may well be more open to the idea of writing a favourable review of a bike. The irony is it doesn’t even really matter since most people want to read a favourable review of their next purchase. It seems one of the main functions of a bike review is to validate the next purchase, rather than objectivity or criticism as evidenced by the fact that you’re just cherry picking bits of what I say and arguing with me presumably because I’m criticizing your chosen bike.

I made a perfectly valid statement about what I look for in a bike, contradicting yours, and you’ve tried to dissect every point.

And yet I’ve yet to meet anyone who’s opinion I valued in any way

And I think I’ll leave it there.

I am looking for ideas as well,like the look of the Last Coal (daft name I know}
can be run as both 27.5 and 26 so could use forks and wheels from old bike until I could afford to buy new

First Look: The Last COAL enduro bike

Or do I buy British
http://empire-cycles.com/product.php?xProd=44

can be run as both 27.5 and 26 so could use forks and wheels from old bike until I could afford to buy new

or just carry on running the old one?

One thing I will point out is that looking at effective top tube is a really bad idea when comparing the geometry of bikes – the actual length of the ‘cockpit’ (for want of a better word for the human side of the bike) will vary hugely depending on the stack height and seat angle.

A long travel 29er with slack seat angle will be a FAR shorter bike than a short travel 27.5 with steep seat angle, when both have exactly the same ETT.

Use reach instead. It tells you horizontal distance from head tube to BB. Way more useful!

If you’re thinking about a Canyon, do it with your eyes open. Fantastic VFM for sure but terrible quality and customer service. The Strive I’ve had since mid August has spent more time broken than working and I’m still waiting for the shapeshifter failure I experienced 2 months ago to be rectified … this wouldn’t be acceptable on a £200 Halfords special never mind something costing more than 10x as much

I would struggle to look past an Specialized E29.

More bike thank most people need and a lot of 2015 models got no cheap.

Have you thought about a Norco? I have a carbon sight, but the range might be more your thing.

*does the classic thing of recommending what you ride*

Commencal Meta AM V4. Good value, good spec, great bike.

Have you seen the price of the last of the 2015 enduro comps http://www.tredz.co.uk/.Specialized-Enduro-Comp-650b-Mountain-Bike-2015-Full-Suspension-MTB_72434.htm?sku=225968&utm_source=Google&utm_medium=AdwordsProductAds&utm_campaign=Adwords&gclid=CMHqi9-z8sgCFdVAGwodhPcCrg#

With 3k you could buy that, a reverb, some handbuilt wheels on pro 2 and maybe have a little change towards saving to replace all the sram crap it comea with

Have you given any thought to clownwheels? BMC Trailfoxes were horrible value at RRP but the prices got absolutely slashed. The basic spec isn’t brilliant but I think you could find a 2014 model for well under your budget and spunk the rest on geegaws. Love mine, it’s not massively slack what with being a 29er but the wheelbase for my medium is as long as some XLs, and longer than my old DH bike. It’s a big unsubtle brick of a thing

If you’re after a large, there will be a 2015 model in the classifieds quite soon! Cheap like a birdie. 😀

Nosedive is bang on the money with that.

All other options become redundant.

http://activesport.co/epages/80c85f8f-7a95-4b1c-9c30-e64b314f3f2e.sf/?Locale=en_GB&ObjectPath=/Shops/80c85f8f-7a95-4b1c-9c30-e64b314f3f2e/Products/50133414/SubProducts/50133415&ViewAction=ViewProductViaPortal

OTOH, that’s Mark Anthony Bikes, I wouldn’t buy a pound off them if they were selling it for 10p.

All other options become redundant.

I’d sooner buy something nice thanks.

Nice? I forgot where we were for a minute.

STW where we overlooked the best performing kit for the shiny stuff to show off to people with.

Jesus christ

jesus Christ

Rode a specialized?

Died young too. Coincidence?

may I also recommend an orbea rallon, because its what I ride.

Other bikes on my shortlist:-

-enduro 650b
-canyon strive
-mondraker dune
-Yt capra (although the geometry never looked right and too many tales of cracked frames)

Bikes are just tools to go out and have fun on,which my Capra Comp 1 has given me lots of every time and everywhere I’ve ridden it over the last 3500 odd miles and 10 happy months .I’m sure I could of had just as much fun on a much more expensive bike as well though.
It appears they have just launched a new spec one for around £2800 🙂

I’ve ridden it over the last 3500 odd miles and 10 happy months

That’s going some, almost 100 miles per week.

Have you considered the Ibis mojo HD3?
It goes up as well as down…

The cube stereo HPA 160 looks great. Last year’s is a steal now and comes with F36s. 2016 has boost sizing so might possibly be future proof.

But they’ll probably reinvent the wheel before long.

Had so much fun on my 2010 Orange 5 today. Such a shame that all its sizing seems to be hard to get now (1 1/8″ steerer, 26″ wheels, 135/12mm rear axle. 27.2mm seat post etc etc….). Still a great ride tho’

Bikes are just tools to go out and have fun on,

But they’re not; that’s only part of it. If you just use your bike for “going out and having fun on” then you’re missing half of the fun!

The other half of the fun is chatting about them on internet forums…and for that job, the likes of the YT Capra is useless. Bought by the types of people whose wardrobes probably contain an item of FireTrap or SuperDry clothing, they are the most generic/dull/tasteless bike on the market.

A three and a half grand full suspension super bike with Kashima might impress your nextdoor neighbour’s children, or the lads on the shop floor; but if you want to impress the real cyclists on the internet then you need to broaden your horizons. Boasting about how many miles you’ve done just makes you sound big headed.

Sorry for the rant.

Trying too hard.

Mondraker Foxy or Dune? Next year’s colours look sweet