Have they not learnt from the past (Mr Gove this morning). What do they think is the better alternative. Perhaps were going to be the fifty whatever state of the USA. They bang on about Norway but we are hardly comparable there or perhaps they are xenophobes they alway were. Below is Art 2 of the modified EC treaty (i think). Whats not to like.

The Community shall have as its task, by establishing a common market and an economic and monetary union and by implementing common policies or activities referred to in Articles 3 and 4, to promote throughout the Community a harmonious, balanced and sustainable development of economic activities, a high level of employment and of social protection, equality between men and women, sustainable and non-inflationary growth, a high degree of competitiveness and convergence of economic performance, a high level of protection and improvement of the quality of the environment, the raising of the standard of living and quality of life, and economic and social cohesion and solidarity among Member States.

“promote throughout the Community a harmonious, balanced and sustainable development of economic activities”

Aren’t they doing well.

I can’t say that I think that it is a good idea to go it completely alone, but being a small part of a big failure isn’t particularly appealing either.

so you wish to leave capitalism as that is what is failing here not the EU
What I struggle with in these debates is all the criticisms can be made about our own govt – failing, undemocratic [ who voted for this govt, unelected “bureaucrats” etc
It is very funny to hear Tories banging on about the EU union as awful and oppressive as they cannot get their own way whilst urging Scotland to stay in the Union as the Union is brilliant and is a great benefit to us all.

In essence they want to be the ones who dictate the terms of any Union they are in, be the main player and simply exploit/bully other members. They do not want to be a loud voice in a crowded room they want to be the only voice in a quiet room as they dont do compromise.

Personally it makes not one bit of difference to me whether the politicians ignore me from Brussels of from Westminster and I see neither version as democratic nor accountable. The criticism usually weak or true of any “democracy”.
I do see the broader aims of the EU as noble – it being a free trade club aside.

I also think there is a general dislike of foreigners or folk coming over here taking our jobs etc- you can call this jingoism, nationalism, patriotism or racism…it really depends on who is saying it

As for the Tories I have no idea why it rips their party apart but it has done for as long as I have been interested in politics [ so 30 years ish]

but being a small part of a big failure isn’t particularly appealing either.

… and paying an awful lot for the privilege

I also think there is a general dislike of foreigners or folk coming over here taking doing our jobs

Often well, happily and with a smile…

Just saying.

But it seems to be the British mentality, we aren’t an ‘all of use together’ nation all said and done, much more me me me.

Everyone goes on about the Tories and their splits over Europe, as their MP’s wear their opposition to the EU as a badge of honour. this is because it is broadly representative of the views of their voters.

But this is not a left/right issue. if/when it comes down to an in/out referendum I wouldn’t expect to see the Labour Party being any more united or enthusiastic. They’re just clever enough not to do their dirty laundry in public until then.

I just assumed Gove was peeved he hadn’t been in the headlines for a couple days…

I also think there is a general dislike of foreigners or folk coming over here taking our jobs etc- you can call this jingoism, nationalism, patriotism or racism…it really depends on who is saying it

Xenophobia.

He will be even more peeved with the OP’s grammar. 😉

100 lines: the plural of Tory is Tories.

You should have a capital T on ‘the’, teamhurtmore.

The plural of Tory is Arseholes.

Junkyard + Europe is generally more progressive and the ‘old boys’ network doesn’t extend that far.

It’s just a different network.

i dont understand why theres all this ho hah over the eurovison.. its only once a year and we did get abba..

I think there is a substantial part of the British population that looks back at the empire and fails to understand the world has changed. We are no longer the power we were. There is a belief that the world owes the UK a living, and this extends to a large part of the british population in there everyday approach to life. You only have to consider how many Brits are multi-lingual to understand this.

The Tories just express this desire for a return to empire, consider the cabinets schooling, and the impression they would have gained from the old boys.

EU … that’s full of bullcock to be frank. I rather prefer the different individual nations with diverse views etc. rather than trying to make everyone the same. What a stupid idea. Yes, stupid.

How stupid can it be to bow to another authority in an abstract setting. This idealistic bull must stop …

I am voting for new Dear Leader from UKIP in the next election just to stir things up a bit. Voted for Dear Tories in the last general election and before that Dear Leader cheeky chap Blair. I am also shame to admit that I once voted for Dear Leader from Lib Dem … I know I know but I was trying to impress some chicks …
🙄

deadlydarcy – Member

The plural of Tory is Arseholes.

The plural of the left … New Dear Leader … 😆

mrmo – Member

I think there is a substantial part of the British population that looks back at the empire and fails to understand the world has changed.

It changed long time ago. Other nations still stick to this commonwealth thingy out of respect for the love of the Queen that’s all. Soon even this commonwealth thing will not work but merely a symbol of the past …

We are no longer the power we were. There is a belief that the world owes the UK a living, and this extends to a large part of the british population in there everyday approach to life. You only have to consider how many Brits are multi-lingual to understand this.

Yes. They are going to find out the hard ways … what we don’t manufacture stuff anymore?

The Tories just express this desire for a return to empire, consider
the cabinets schooling, and the impression they would have gained from the old boys.

It’s just an expression of glory but NuLabour etc are merely expressing them in a different way. Either way you are no longer significant …

The Tories just express this desire for a return to empire

Do you actually believe that, or do you simply see it as a fitting stick to beat the Tories with, irrespective of whether it’s true or not ?

And as for the comment that “We are no longer the power we were”, whilst that is undoubtedly true, Britain is the sixth wealthiest nation on earth, is a permanent member of of the United Nations Security Council, one of nine countries in the world with nuclear weapons, a G7 member, and has the fifth largest navy in the world, so Britain can still pack a punch on the international stage.

As for the Tories I have no idea why it rips their party apart

my guess is that they’re stuck between the rock of europe being the most substantial market for their own business interests and the hard place of just generally being insular xenophobes.

I think there is a substantial part of the British population that looks back at the empire and fails to understand the world has changed.

i think there’s also a substantial part of the population that does not realise that even when the empire was at its apogee, trade with europe was still greater.
the whole reason for us fighting two world wars in the c20 was to limit german hegemony in europe and preserve our stake.

And as for the comment that “We are no longer the power we were”, whilst that is undoubtedly true, Britain is the sixth wealthiest nation on earth, is a permanent member of of the United Nations Security Council, one of nine countries in the world with nuclear weapons, a G7 member, and has the fifth largest navy in the world, so Britain can still pack a punch on the international stage.

It won’t for much longer.

There is a belief that the world owes the UK a living, and this extends to a large part of the british population in there everyday approach to life. You only have to consider how many Brits are multi-lingual to understand this.

Agreed.

mrmo – Member
I think there is a substantial part of the British population that looks back at the empire and fails to understand the world has changed. We are no longer the power we were. There is a belief that the world owes the UK a living, and this extends to a large part of the british population in there everyday approach to life. You only have to consider how many Brits are multi-lingual to understand this.

Classic !

Mr Gove now says that life outside the EU would be ‘tolerable’ what does that mean!? Tolerable for who? It seems that The Tories are pushig this whatever the consequence. If there is a referendum will there be an option for all in?

Life inside the eu is looking pretty intolerable if you live somewhere sunny.

Very good to quote Artilcle 2 as it provides interesting frames of reference.

Take the first phrase: “establishing a common market and an economic and monetary union”

So there are two questions – first, did the Euro area satisfy the criteria for optimum currency area (monetary union) and, second, if so, were the appropriate structures put in place to allow it to be successful.

Given that ironically the answer to both questions is/was “NO” then it is hadly surprising that not all of the quoted objectives were achieved. The fact that they missed (in some cases) so spectacularly gives all that needs to be known as to it’s sustainability in its current format. The only undercertanties are (1) exactly where 2/3 main parties stand on the issue and (2) the timing of the ultimate demise of the single currency.

As the military say, “fail to plan……..”

Let’s hope the planning for the next phase is a little bit better.

a high degree of competitiveness and convergence of economic performance, a high level of protection and improvement of the quality of the environment, the raising of the standard of living and quality of life, and economic and social cohesion and solidarity among Member States.

To be fair, it’s probably this causing the most consternation. Many in the UK are not prepared to share their wealth with the neighbours, so expecting them to happily transfer it to southern and eastern Europe was perhaps too optimistic. I agree it is a noble aim, but I’ve not heard that many being open and honest about that aspect.

meh, Goves non-comments* were more about staking his claim in the forthcoming tory leadership contest than any real political convictions

* non-comments as in he said he would abstain from the forthcomming vote and said life would be ‘tolerable’ outside the EU

[video] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KUcu5HdhYI&feature=youtube_gdata_player%5B/video%5D4