Derekpish,I was a plasterer for 20 years,not only that but I was shopfitting with the hours that entails…Teaching is harder. Sorry if that disagrees with your opinions about something you clearly understand little about,but every day a school day..( see what l did there)

duckman – Member
Derekpish,I was a plasterer for 20 years,not only that but I was shopfitting with the hours that entails…Teaching is harder. Sorry if that disagrees with your opinions about something you clearly understand little about,but every day a school day..( see what l did there)

I actually don’t care, how hard or easy it is, as I said earlier I just really don’t like the breed, so sadly by definition that includes you, although naturally since we’ve never met I’d sooner you didn’t take it too personally because as a breed, plasterers are a whole lot nicer bunch, but if Gove makes teachers mad, then that makes me happy, that is all there is to it really.
You’ll note I resisted the childish replacement of the letter ‘d’ in your name as retaliation, that’s what us grown ups do that teachers don’t. 😉

derekfish – what do you actually do in the private sector?

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JZVSAljd3Q[/video]

Ha!

Teachers are a breed? Oh, do piss off.

If you are going to troll,it is bad form to forget sweeping generalizations you have just made. I was challenging your claim they do little work,but feel free to vent.

They wouldn’t know how to work their arse off, other than polishing a seat with it.

It depresses me…on one hand you have people who’ve made an incalculable contribution to culture who shuffle off this mortal coil way too soon and on the other you have an army of colossal helmets who exist simply to make life slightly more crappy for the rest of us, yet they stubbornly refuse to do the decent thing and at least have themselves sterilized before they breed. The latter far outweigh the former, sadly.

You’ll note I resisted the childish replacement of the letter ‘d’ in your name as retaliation, that’s what us grown ups do that teachers don’t.

You’re not… Categorising yourself as a grownup, are you? I rather had it in my head that being a grownup at least implied a bit of rationality and ability to maintain a coherent argument.

I was going to engage with derekfish until;

I actually don’t care, how hard or easy it is

which rather undermined his whole ‘they have it easy’ argument previously.

so I think I’ll leave him to his hatred of humans he’s never met because of their choice of career. I guess it makes a refreshing change from hating people because of their nationality or race, for some.

Gove delivers bad medicine. Well it could be medicine or it could be poison depending on your point of view but the point is he is not the first or the last education secretary to piss off the profession. What makes him particularly odious (disliked more than anyone before him?) to almost everyone on every side of the political divide is an almost impossible void of likeable human traits. There can’t be a man or woman who has ever seen him on telly and thought, ‘now there’s a bloke I’d like a pint with’. He is also missing any vestige of the sort of personality you would look for in your ideal boss. Everyone can take a little bit of bad medicine if you have a tiny bit of respect (even if its grudging) for the person dishing it out.

Glad to see the teacher bashing mob are out, they are always so funny and so well informed.

Michael Gove cuts £100m from ALL Sixth Form colleges whilst £62m spent on just NINE 16-19 Free Schools.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/exclusive-alevel-courses-closed-as-michael-gove-cuts-100m-from-sixthform-colleges-9102755.html

The college leaders are also incensed that the Govern ment has spent £62m setting up nine new free schools, offering education for 16 to 19-year-olds, which between them have just 1,557 pupils – less than the average number enrolled in just one sixth-form college. They estimate that the Government is spending more than £39,616 for every student at the free schools, compared to just £4,000 on those at sixth-form colleges

I reckon at £40k/student there’s a good chance of a good outcome for those 1557 pupils.

Lets’ hope the same level of funding is rolled out to all after it’s established that spending 10 times as much money generally helps produce better outcomes, eh.

I reckon at £40k/student there’s a good chance of a good outcome for those 1557 pupils.

In the spirit of evenhandedness, the sort of analytical ability seen in that article (read before) is not doing the anti-govers many favours. Those numbers only stack up if they pulled the place down again after the first year. ‘Setting up’ means constructing buildings etc etc that will hopefully be there a shed load longer than one cohort of students so those numbers are meaningless. They are trying to compare setting up colleges from bare earth at £40K per place with the annual maintenance of an existing college at £4K per place – apples and pears. This does not mean I don’t think the idea is bobbins!

Lets’ hope the same level of funding is rolled out to all after it’s established that spending 10 times as much money generally helps produce better outcomes, eh.

If only it was that simple. The one experiment that we have all been watching over the past 50 years or so, is the “lets spend more” approach. The results have hardly been that impressive. Not that this defends the specific policy noted above – it doesn’t – but spending does not guarantee results. That is established.

the “lets spend more” approach

Given the comparisons being made with the private sector maybe we should try the ‘let’s spend enough’ approach?

Public funding per pupil has never matched private and yet there’s a constistent approach by Gove (and others before him) to suggest that it’s teachers or the syllabus that are at the heart of the problem.

If primary school class sizes were halved, secondary schools had selective entry and funding was set as level with the private sector then that would, without doubt, deliver a result on a par (adjusted for various social and ‘pre-school’ environmental issues).

Yes, all teachers need to be reflective and understand what best practice is and this is a contributory factor in pupil and school success but it’s not the biggest issue.

Perhaps it’s a combination of issues?

Many of the simple private v public state comparisons are flawed anyway.

But as the OECD analysis showed today, the poorest 10% in Shanghai perform as well, if not better than, the most privileged 20% in UK and US. As I have said many times, money does not buy you academic success.

money does not buy you academic success.

no, it’s as much down to parental commitment and pupil motivation as an adequately funded school and competent teaching.

The issue of funding always leaves the state system playing catch up when it comes to facilities and, most importantly, the time a teacher can spend with each individual child.

The thing is, there has been a huge improvement in teaching and standards; there’s simply no comparison between the experience I had at school and that of my children. I also think I received a much better education than many in my parents’ generation, and they had better than their parents.

The rest helps though !

Many of the simple private v public state comparisons are flawed anyway.
But as the OECD analysis showed today, the poorest 10% in Shanghai perform as well, if not better than, the most privileged 20% in UK and US. As I have said many times, money does not buy you academic success.

but not anywahere near as flawed as comparing Uk and Shanghai

Yes, good job none of us do it AA isn’t it?!?! We’ll be comparing the UK and Sweden next. Blimey!

there has been a huge improvement in teaching and standards; there’s simply no comparison between the experience I had at school and that of my children.

Really? How are you measuring that?

So whats your point THM. If increasing funding to the same level as the private schools wouldnt help what is the problem. I can be pretty confident in saying the teachers are no better but the support per pupil is much lower. How does the state sector improve on this with no new funding.

Oh and at least sweden is in europe but then taking your view point that schools within the uk cannot be compared I suppose your right in your world. You’re wrong in saying Uk schools cannot be compared though.

It’s a very simple one – money alone doesn’t guarantee success, There are lots of factors involved.

Such as? Especially interested in those that ccan be improved without investment.

It’s a very simple one – money alone doesn’t guarantee success

It is bloody useful though.

There are lots of factors involved.

Yup, like being able to select pupils based on ability. Although the biggest single determining factor in a childs educational performance is the attitude and support of the parents.

As an aside my new favourite Goveism was when he was critical of the holiday companies increasing prices during periods of high demand. So that’s a Tory Minister who doesn’t like free market economics.

there has been a huge improvement in teaching and standards; there’s simply no comparison between the experience I had at school and that of my children.

Really? How are you measuring that?[/quote]

Subjectively, I can see what they’re doing and I remember what I did. Objectively, the achievements of my kids’ cohorts outweigh those of mine.

The secondary school I attended recently got 63% getting 5A*-C (inc English and maths), but was half that (without English and maths) when I attended in the early 90s. My eldest starts there in September.

My brother is a teacher as was my mother, I would say my brother works a lot harder than my mother ever did, I do think teaching has changed from that era. The nostalgia that many view the past with is just completely ridiculous.

Many employers also seem to have forgotten that they used to train people to do jobs, now they take none of the responsibility and just whinge and moan blaming everyone else. It is just normal Torie boy entitlement, they whine on and on about other sections of society’s entitlements, but then demand far more than anyone else.

I’m not reading through all the posts to see if it’s been mentioned yet but has anyone brought up his wife yet? Sarah Vine, Daily Mail writer….

She’s a thoroughly odious character and spreads hate and conflict through her daily mail filth and twitter hate campaigns. they are so well made for each other.

According to a UKCES report, employers who recruit school leavers think they’re reasonably well-prepared for work:

Only a minority of business are prepared to give education leavers their first job, but when they do, they find their new recruits are generally well-prepared for work.

If we’re all rubbish teachers, it must be a really easy job.

If anyone fancies taking my ‘Environmental Sustainability in the Construction Industry’ lesson in a minute feel free.
I’ve got a lovely class of half asleep disinterested 16yr olds waiting for you 🙂

It is just normal Torie boy entitlement, they whine on and on about other sections of society’s entitlements, but then demand far more than anyone else.

Really? So how about making it much easier for heads to sack poor performing teachers and introducing rigorous and regular testing to teachers. Those Tory boys Ed Balls and Tristram Hunt hide their political allegiances well. The guardian was commenting on the merits of Hunt’s ideas yesterday just as the good old progressive NUT described them as

“Utterly pointless….another unnecessary hurdle…..bureaucratic nightmare….”

Quelle surprise. Change, us??? Bloody disgrace to have unqualified teachers and bloody disgrace to introduce better qualifications and training, In fact, it’s just a bloody disgrace. So MSP is that the usual tory NUT whining?

“Bind their kings in chains, and their nobles in fetters of iron..”

One part of the King James authorised I’m more than happy to bring back, if we can extend it to ministers who aren’t actually nobility (yet).

(Ninja Spelling Edit :-))

I see buttons have been pushed. 🙂

Something else that’s being missed around the CE is most of the nice middle class children taking it have been extensively coached at the parents expense to do it (in my experience). I’m not sure how this translates into improving standards in neglected, deprived areas but hey, Gove’s just the ideas man, it’s those lazy teachers that need to get on with the ‘doing’..

Time for teachers to join in.

They wouldn’t know how to work their arse off, other than polishing a seat with it.

Yeah, thanks for that.
Those 20 years breaking my back as a tradesman on site, giving me the knowledge and experience to pass on to learners felt really easy and not at all like hard work. 😕
Glad it was appreciated by some.

It’s a common wailing of right-wingers when times are tough. “Why isn’t it easier for me to sack someone?”

Those 20 years breaking my back as a tradesman on site, giving me the knowledge and experience to pass on to learners felt really easy and not at all like hard work.

I work with an ex-Para (multiple Northern Ireland tours, plus both Iraq wars) who’d disagree with teachers not knowing hard work, too.

It’s a common wailing of right-wingers when times are tough. “Why isn’t it easier for me to sack someone?”

The thing is, competency procedures to get rid of crap teachers exist, and they’re used. It’s only people who believe what they read in the papers who think they don’t.

Sadly, they’ve been used to get rid of loads of experienced (expensive) teachers and replace them with (cheap) NQTs.

I know and how on earth did those right wingers (the ones whose ideas I referred to) end up in high office in the Labour Party. It beggars belief deadly doesn’t it?

Still in the NUTs own fact (sic) sheets it does note that, “spending on education was important but less so than other factors” and that, “The bottom line is that the quality of a school system cannot exceed the quality of its teachers.”

So they (NUT) should be all in favour of regular testing and training for teachers!!

The [?] education secretary [? ?] said regular re-licensing of teachers would allow the worst ones to be sacked whilst helping others to receive more training and development.

Fill in the blanks yourself! Clue, the first ? begins with S and ends with W.

Problem is if you sack teachers you have to employ more and good teachers are very thin on the ground.
So THM you must have missed my question on the last page. Can you give me some examples of how to improve schools and close the state private gap that wont need extra investment?