Viewing 37 posts - 1 through 37 (of 37 total)
  • What happened to value for money?
  • sellisnba
    Free Member

    Sorry if this sounds like a bit of a rant but what happened to value for money when you buy a bike.
    I’m currently riding a spesh camber comp 2011 which I bought 2nd hand so I didn’t pay that much for it. Iirc this particular bike retailed at I think £1700. Seriously what do get for your money. Not a lot in my eyes. Recon SILVER forks
    A drivetrain that probably cost less than £150 all in and a very mediocre rear shock. For the same price you can get a canyon with a spec that far outways the camber.
    How can people like specialized get away with charging so much? I know you can’t try the canyons and apparently the customer service is pants, also you are buying straight from them cutting out the middleman but ffs its starting to take the piss now.
    I love biking and will always enjoy it as much as I can and wish I could buy more expensive bike parts, but there comes a point when I think the bike company’s really take this biscuit.
    Anyone with me on this or am I being a whiny old man?

    khani
    Free Member

    You see all those fancy big shops and race teams…
    And those BFO adverts in whatmbruktrack…

    jam-bo
    Full Member

    So buy the canyon.

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    crashtestmonkey
    Free Member

    who pays RRP? 2012 Cambers £1275

    http://www.leisurewheels.co.uk/products.php?plid=m1b3s1p9644&rs=gb&vid=33031

    The web is awash with last year’s bikes for ~40% off. Recently bought a Lapierre Xelius road bike from CRC private sale; full carbon frame and fork, full Ultegra group set, brand new with warranty (and nicer paint job than this years model) for £1300. Wouldn’t have paid £2300 rrp for it but even Canyon Outlet couldn’t match that for value.

    hatter
    Full Member

    *Boring but factual content warning*

    In direct reply to the OP:

    Simply put… exchange rates.

    Pre 2008, the pound was artificially strong against the Dollar (2:1 at one point if I recall), far eastern bike factories almost all take dollars so bikes seemed comparatively cheap.

    Since the financial crash the pound has corrected and as a result bikes now cost more in U.K. terms.

    Brands like Canyon sell direct from a single German warehouse, cutting out the bike shop, that leaves you with minimal local support if you need something sorting sharpish but removes the 30-40% dealer margin from the final ticket price.

    Whilst this model works for a forum dweller with a fairly decent home workshop it’s less suitable for the other 90% of the population who expect to pickup a bike ready to ride at to be able to take it back to the shop if the gears start jumping.

    Specialized could easily match Canyon’s pricing by selling bikes direct online but to do so they would fatally undermine their well established dealer network who have done such a good job of getting them to where they are. They have to choose and they’ve chosen the traditional LBS route rather than chase the ‘how cheap can I get an XT groupset’ crowd.

    I very much doubt that Specialized and co make percentage operating margins greater than Canyon’s They’re bigger but their way of getting their product to market is much more labour and capital intensive.

    If price is your main focus, get a Canyon, if face to face service is more important, buy Specialized from your LBS, neither option is right or wrong just a matter of priorities.

    Edric64
    Free Member

    I agree about Recon Silvers they are utter litter

    ampthill
    Full Member

    Looks like you’s spotted a gap in the market.

    Quick start a new bike company just like Spec’ and Trek but sell the bikes cheaper!!!!

    roadie_in_denial
    Free Member

    I think you’re talking utter tosh, frankly. Certainly bike spec isn’t as ‘good’ as it was pre-2008 for the reasons mentioned above but I think you’re looking at it backwards. Rather than Specialized etc selling at inflated prices, I’d suggest to you that Canyon are the exception who are undercutting Specialized and their ilk by selling direct.

    Finally…if there’s so much money being made in cycle retail, why are local LBSs closing and chains taking over? Why aren’t LBS staff paid better? Why do LBS staff ‘leave to make more money elsewhere’ when they get wives and families etc? Why can I not think of a single LBS owner who drives anything more than an ‘average’ saloon type car? These are just annecdotal points off the top of my head but having worked in the trade, allow me to assure you that should I ever decide to try and ‘go it alone’ and make my fortune somehow, I certainly won’t be going anywhere near the cycle industry!

    tpbiker
    Free Member

    Orange appear to have the right idea….

    Overpriced and they sell them direct. If you’re lucky they’ll upgrade the old parts for you, charge you full whack to do so, then keep the old bits to sell on to the next punter

    pure genius….

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Orange appear to have the right idea….

    Overpriced and they sell them direct. If you’re lucky they’ll upgrade the old parts for you, charge you full whack to do so, then keep the old bits to sell on to the next punter

    pure genius….

    Only works in the UK though elsewhere you need a dealer etc.

    If you want to try a bike for size, have it set up get a free service a month down the line pop back and tweak a few things get some set-up advice have a warranty that doesn’t involve always having a bike box in the garage etc buy from a LBS. If none of that interests you buy direct.

    As far as a misleading thread title goes I find there are loads of good VFM products in the bike industry. Initial cost being a very small factor in that. Hope for instance provide products that last are serviceable and back them up I have 1st year ProII’s on one bike. I have been getting 6/7 years tough use out of 1 camelback that I finally retired.

    ampthill
    Full Member

    But you can but Orange bikes froma dealer?

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    But you can but Orange bikes froma dealer?

    Sorry they sell direct to shops rather than via a distributor. Overseas the bike shops need somebody to call in their timezone and language.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    Partly you’re comparing prices today with prices at a point where value was unusually good. And I think partly you’re taking a fairly bad example of modern value.

    Looking at it over the long run, today’s £600 bikes are better than almost any bike in the world from when I started riding. They might not look like great value in terms of parts or material but in terms of performance it’s staggering.

    hatter
    Full Member

    ‘Roadie in denial’, please read my post again and point out where I said that bike shops are making a fortune? I can’t recall stating that.

    I was merely attempting answer the opening question in order to explain the end consumer price differential between Canyon and Spesh.

    I deliberately avoided any emotive rhetoric and tried to point out that Specialized’s ticket price vs Canyon isn’t just down to Specialized (or anyone for that matter) making inflated profits.

    I’d suggest to you that Canyon are the exception who are undercutting Specialized and their ilk by selling direct

    Rosebikes
    Mafia bikes
    Planet X
    On-one
    Cotic
    Islabikes
    Spin Cycles
    Dialled Bikes
    Pipedream

    Canyon were one of the pioneers but they’re far from the exception.

    And you accuse me of talking tosh?

    Mackem
    Full Member

    I’ve never tried a Canyon but i’ve owned/tried a fair few Specialized, and I have to say Speccys are damn good bikes and decent value imo. Are Canyon as good for the same price or are they simply cheaper with what appears to be a good spec but dont actually do the job, or something else?

    Toasty
    Full Member

    Easy digging Orange every few minutes, but to be honest they’re virtually the same price as supermarket bikes now anyway:

    2013 Stumpy Evo

    2013 Orange Five AM

    Better wheelset on the Five, fork could get argued both ways, not sure what the budget Float 34s are like. SLX vs X7/X9? Have fun with that PF30 BB.

    At least you know your money has gone to a smaller company with bugger all buying power. Rather than, err, research? 15 years of research and we decided our initial linkage design was correct.

    It was only about 2-3 years ago Specialized were popping out Pitches for just over £1k, with a top set of Pikes, solid wheels and really well thought out solid kit. Few years on and everyone is fine paying double?

    Besides, 3-4 year old Stumpy frame will get £300-400 on classified. 3-4 year old Five, easy £800 or so.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    It was only about 2-3 years ago Specialized were popping out Pitches for just over £1k, with a top set of Pikes, solid wheels and really well thought out solid kit. Few years on and everyone is fine paying double?

    back to Hatters comments

    *Boring but factual content warning*

    In direct reply to the OP:

    Simply put… exchange rates.

    The UK has no buying power with the way the pound is. Price shift and VAT increases have more to do with the ticket price than anything else

    Northwind
    Full Member

    Toasty – Member

    It was only about 2-3 years ago Specialized were popping out Pitches for just over £1k, with a top set of Pikes, solid wheels and really well thought out solid kit. Few years on and everyone is fine paying double?

    Like I mentioned up the page, the £800 Pitches were crazy, crazy value, so a big part of the “rise” is really just the return to the mean.

    Research isn’t just about linkages… Spesh play around with their linkage positions in the same way as Orange, but also materials, construction… Kit gets lighter and stronger, carbon gets into more models. The 29er Camber ends up weighing the same as the 26er, for instance.

    Also- the carbon expert evo is closer in price to the Five than the Comp which you linked. £2500 vs £2900 is not “almost the same price”, it’s damn near 20% more!

    Toasty
    Full Member

    But it’s not everyone, I’m specifically saying Specialized has drastically gone downhill value wise. EX8s, Cubes, Lapierres etc, all great value, vaguely in line with inflation.

    Specialized on the other hand, decided to ditch 26″ entirely and ramp up all prices across the board.

    http://www.evanscycles.com/products/specialized/carve-comp-2013-mountain-bike-ec042220

    The new Carves are an awesome example. £200 forks, £100 X5 group set, £80 wheels, £60 Elixir 1s, err £800 M4 frame?

    Toasty
    Full Member

    Kit gets lighter and stronger, carbon gets into more models.

    Well only because they stop building low end models entirely. There’s 1 alloy Stumpy? The cheapest carbon one is £3k.

    2010 Stumpy Comp

    £1799 – 3 years ago, higher spec (although admittedly much more in line with a modern Camber).

    Also- the carbon expert evo is closer in price to the Five than the Comp which you linked.

    Errr, this one?

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    But it’s not everyone, I’m specifically saying Specialized has drastically gone downhill value wise. EX8s, Cubes, Lapierres etc, all great value, vaguely in line with inflation.

    Conversely down here in Oz things from the states are still great value, so is Euro stuff.
    Back in 09ish you could get 2$/pound now its 1.5, Euro has been hanging round 1.1-1.25 in that time.

    There is import duty on US products but not EU ones, there are lots of factors at work there.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    Toasty – Member

    Errr, this one?

    No, this one:

    http://www.leisurewheels.co.uk/products.php?plid=m1b3s1p9637&rs=gb&vid=33006

    And before you say “last year’s model”, it’s a newer model than the Five AM. And I’m not saying that’s a fair comparison- but it’s no less fair than the £400 difference between the similiarly specced Comp and Five. And what really counts is the street price not the RRP.

    Toasty
    Full Member

    Err ok, then this one is BETTER value than the original one I compared to if you prefer?

    http://www.jejamescycles.co.uk/orange-five-am-full-suspension-mountain-bike-id66014.html

    The very fact it can be vaguely disputed shows Specialized have gone a bit off the ball? Five prices are very slowly crawling up, Specialized are zooming along. Zesty 314 or EX8 are miles better value than both.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    Float R, urgh.

    Toasty
    Full Member

    Ebay them for £700 and buy 2 sets of Revs if you like.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    Wee bit optimistic that, they’re £750 new (though you have to be demented to buy them at that price). But a fair point.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Spec make a huge range of bikes across a big price range, if you can’t find one you like then thats unlucky. The orange linked is OK not a stunning build.

    Base Spec Heckler http://www.bike-treks.co.uk/custombuilder.aspx?id=563467 2400
    Stumpy Evo http://www.bike-treks.co.uk/505825/products/2013_specialized_stumpjumper_fsr_comp_evo.aspx 2500
    Fule EX8 http://www.wheelbase.co.uk/product_20070.htm 2300

    Nice set of bikes at nice prices. Can’t see one being more of a rip off than the others…

    NormalMan
    Full Member

    @ OP – to clarify, a 2011 Camber Comp was £1250. RRP not £1700.

    That might make a difference.

    roadie_in_denial
    Free Member

    I still think you’re talking tosh OP. You’ve listed a group of relatively niche manucacturers all of whom have chosen not to sell through LBSs. Therefore my comments about LBSs are relevant as they are part of the chain from manufacturer to customer and therefore take a cut from the ticket price.

    Anyway, that said my tone was a tad harsh, so apologies for that.

    njee20
    Free Member

    Mike Sinyard and Specialized seem to be doing ok. They sell out of McLaren Venges and S-Works Epics at £7-£10k every year. If you don’t want to buy one… Don’t. But don’t base any assessment of their perceived value of the ‘halcyon days’ of the odd discounted model that they couldn’t sell for love nor money (the Pitch was identical for 2 years as they couldn’t shift the stock, it took people a long time to realise they were good).

    sellisnba
    Free Member

    Whatever way you look at it or try to dress it up and justify it, cycling is a massive rip off.

    limkilde
    Free Member

    Specialized is just as overprized as Cannondale.
    Value for money. Canyon and Radon

    njee20
    Free Member

    Whatever way you look at it or try to dress it up and justify it, cycling is a massive rip off

    How?

    You can get a serviceable bike for £200, kit yourself out fully for another £100 and enjoy. That’s pretty damn cheap as outdoor pursuits go!

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    lol at all the posts 🙂

    limkilde – Member
    Specialized is just as overprized as Cannondale.
    Value for money. Canyon and Radon

    Canyon wont sell to Australia, guess they CBA and don’t want to deal with warranty from too far away. Direct selling goes so far but I’m not buying a bike off a size table.

    bol
    Full Member

    sellisnba – Member
    Whatever way you look at it or try to dress it up and justify it, cycling is a massive rip off.

    Sorry, who is being ripped off? No fraud as far as I can see. Just people making choices in a market. Oh, and fantastic 3-4 year old bargains to be had for people new to the sport or with limited available funds. Cobblers I say.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    sellisnba – Member

    Whatever way you look at it or try to dress it up and justify it, cycling is a massive rip off.

    You can get a perfectly good mountain bike for under £500. We’re no being ripped off when we spend more, we’re just being sold the thing we demand at the price we’re prepared to pay.

    johnas7
    Free Member

    a love the specialized bikes, managed to get the new £1500 camber 2013 29er for £1200. usually retails for £1500 but me LBS had a new year sale on just for the week. A few other bike shops told me that the 2013 models wouldnt be getting reduced untill the end of the year.

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