Private yachts, which they register as "Trawlers", although these have recently disappeared from their moorings, for some reason...
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what do the Greeks spend the money on?
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Posted 11 months ago #
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Don't forget the "unfinished house" scam. Every other house in Greece has concrete and iron sticking out of the flat "roof".
Posted 11 months ago # -
This thread is a bit full on. I'm somewhat Greek and much as they have their problems to paint the whole country as corrupt and grasping is a bit much.
Posted 11 months ago # -
I know a few greeks living here with their families back in greece and they say the level of corruption is huge, they got more out of their state pensions than they put into them and the public sector made ours look like a three man corner shop enterprise compared to theirs.
Posted 11 months ago # -
I'm not saying it isn't iffy over there but the tone of this thread is a bit off.
Like all the poorer economies in the Euro, Greece can't devalue and that is really screwing them. Worth remembering that as not too long ago the UK devalued by 20% and it largely saved our bacon. I'm not defending the bad practice and corruption but no nation is blameless especally ours, seems a bit rum to point the finger.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Hi bent_udder.
I read that article (all of it!) from Michael Lewis. Very entertaining/enlightening. I'll look out for some more of his stuff in future.
I can now safely say that 99.9% of what I know about Greece I have just learnt. - And it's all rather shocking.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Actually reading through all the links and information on the problem, I don't think devaluing would save their economy. The austerity measures are the sensible way forward, and the dodgers need to start paying taxes and the corruption needs to end, it really is the only hope for them.
Posted 11 months ago # -
I was about to say "it's not this ringroad which was never finished and funded by EU money", but according to the map it's now been completed. Maybe that's what's caused all the problems...
Posted 11 months ago # -
Wouldn't save them but it would help make them a touch more competitive. The current situation is hard to see a way out of and the austerity measures are looking increasingly unlikely to help. Need to sell a fair few olives to get out of this mess.
Posted 11 months ago # -
I think if some of the stereotype comments on this thread had been made about black people the mods would have had to pull the thread as racist.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Reading through that vanity fair article, the comments are all fair though. Mental, wonder how they will get on when they cannot afford to buy oil/power.
How the hell can public sector workers retire at 50, and be paid 3 times the private sector workers salaries, let alone no-one paying taxes, because they don't want to.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Pisspoor tax collection, highest military spending in EU (per cap), high social spending, inefficiency, corruption, massive and crappily-managed state-owned enterprises...
Whether those allegations are true or not, they are extremely unlikely to have suddenly materialised - they are much more likely to have been deeply ingrained in Greek society over many decades. So it doesn't explain why Greece suddenly finds itself in such an appalling economic mess.
The much more likely cause of the economic collapse is government policy. Between March 2004 and September 2009 the Greek Conservatives were in power and they followed strict neo-liberal policies which included deep cuts to pensions, tax cuts for property and inheritance, and privately-funded higher education. By 2009 Greece was in economic chaos and the Conservatives were thrown out by the Greek electorate. Economic incompetence by the previous government and the global credit crunch is what contributed to the existing situation.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Surely the fact that nobody bothers to pay any tax, means you must have a thriving private/retail/service sector with people spunking money away left right and centre?
Posted 11 months ago # -
Well maybe taxation is actually a "good thing" binners ? .....despite the fact that we are fed this daily diet by the right-wing press concerning the evils of taxation.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Taxation is indeed a good thing, it was the Tories in the Eighties who branded it bad. I for one would happily pay more tax if it was well spent and improved society as a whole.
Sadly the Greeks are screwed either way, default or no default.
What gets me about the Euro scenario the most is that suddenly everyone is suprised about the current issues, surely the idea of the Euro was to help the poorer nations. Subsidize the wealth from the richer nations to help a greater Euro was the plan.
Otherwise what was the point of the Euro?
Posted 11 months ago # -
Otherwise what was the point of the Euro?
One of the benefits is that I don't have to pay to change currency when I travel within the €urozone, as a result trade should increase.
The currency alone won't help the weaker countries, the EU is for that.Posted 11 months ago # -
ernie - I totally agree with you. That's what I'm saying. This proves that the whole Thatcherite theory of trickle-down economics, to justify tax breaks to the rich, is utter and complete cobblers.
As I always thought it was
Posted 11 months ago # -
binners - Member
Surely the fact that nobody bothers to pay any tax, means you must have a thriving private/retail/service sector with people spunking money away left right and centre?IMO
From what I understand that's exactly what happened, the problem is all the money came from government borrowing, not from a healthy productive economy.
EDIT: The Greek government are not the only government to over borrow and go on a 10 year spending spree, just one of the least likely to be able to pay it back.
Posted 11 months ago # -
The only way to get your money back is to put the Greeks to hard labour ...
Oh ya ... we are **** too by EURO zone.
Posted 11 months ago # -
in that case it really does look like the mother of all economic **** ups
I mean, that Irish spent all there dosh on over-valued property
Iceland on Buying up half the businesses on the high streetGreece has spunked it all on dodgy tax scams, yachts and letting a generation retire at 50.
And.... erm... they're still expecting this bale out?
In that case, can I get one from the EU to pay off my credit card
Posted 11 months ago # -
I think some sort of debt for equity swap is in order.
Posted 11 months ago # -
mudshark - Member
I think some sort of debt for equity swap is in order.
You mean their islands? Olive oil?
What do they have that is worth swapping?
Posted 11 months ago # -
I for one would happily pay more tax if it was well spent and improved society as a whole.
So would I but such a shame it can never be like that. Some are more equal than other etc.
Surely a one-dimensional left-right spectrum is the only solution?
I'm off to the beach before it gets dark, I expect this to be solved by the time I get back.
Posted 11 months ago # -
so it seems the greeks as individuals bought in to 'let the good times roll' choosing to retire at 50 is laudable but if those in work choose not to pay taxes than its an avalanche looking for a steep slope
sure it didnt just happen this week but the solution needs to start today and borrowing more money 35 thousand million pounds... think about how much that is.. 35 thousand million pounds. is not the answer.Posted 11 months ago # -
What do they have that is worth swapping?
Well... if an organization can't pay its debts then the creditors could take control of the whole thing and work out how to get the best value from it rather than get nothing. Quite a lot to sell really, What does the Parthanon generate? Probably best to leave it where it is rather than stick it in the British Museum along with that other stuff we've got from them. Not sure what we do with the Greeks though, some would be needed to run things but there's a lot of fat that needs trimming.
Posted 11 months ago # -
borrowing more money 35 thousand million pounds... think about how much that is.. 35 thousand million pounds. is not the answer
.It's only the answer because that's the interest on the money they were lent. For sure it's not the answer to how to get the economy moving again, but that is not, and has never been, the motive of the IMF and the banks. So the Euro taxpayer sends off money to Greece who promptly have to send it back, with the proceeds of selling the family silver, to line Goldman Sachs pockets
Posted 11 months ago # -
what do the Greeks spend the money on?
Toga parties.
Posted 11 months ago # -
I don't think that anyone's under any illusions that the bail out is some act of altruism. The IMF/EU just want to make sure the banks get their money. They don't care which taxpayer's pocket it comes out of. The Greeks? The Germans? French? Ours? Meh! Whateeever! Just get it into our accounts.
After they've got they're cash, they'll happily sit quaffing Krug while watching Athens dissolve into medieval anarchy
Posted 11 months ago # -
ernie - I totally agree with you. That's what I'm saying. This proves that the whole Thatcherite theory of trickle-down economics, to justify tax breaks to the rich, is utter and complete cobblers.
Yes I know.......I was just adding to the point which I knew you were making
Of course the irony is that despite the myth they created, the highest tax-burden Britain has ever experienced in its history was actually under Thatcher. Low taxation under Thatcher was only ever for the privileged few, not for the average man or woman. And still the Tories pursue that agenda with the likes of the "Tory VAT Bombshell" which the LibDems correctly identified before the last general election, but completely betrayed their own voters on.
Yes the Tories fully recognise the importance of taxation, despite the fact that they think they shouldn't be paying it.
Posted 11 months ago # -
Iceland on Buying up half the businesses on the high street
Well how else were people of the world going to get cheap frozen food?
ernie - I totally agree with you. That's what I'm saying. This proves that the whole Thatcherite theory of trickle-down economics, to justify tax breaks to the rich, is utter and complete cobblers.
Those who propagated this myth knew full well what could happen, but hey they made their money and are now well out of it. Unfortunately there are no rules in place to prevent the next generation from doing it again.
Posted 11 months ago #
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