We do have a good relationship with the FC and they are very helpful (short of actually providing money, labour and materials) so we could build some really good stuff if more people would just come and help!So if you want better trails here, please join the bike club and help us build them.
We would love to build some "decent trails" but there is no money and no labour. Each trail build is just the same dozen or so of us who turn out all the time just to have our work abused by people who don't help, ignore the "trail under construction - do not ride" signs which damages new bits causing us more work, and ride down trails we have closed to work on and abuse us for ruining their ride when we try and make things better.
I could have written that about any of the SingletrAction sites, LOL.
The Omen music on the video on the last page is more suited to xfactor than that trail.
Tame.
So, I've been on 2 wheels for 20+ years and never ridden at a trail centre. I've watched this thread and t'other one and am none the wiser as to which I should try first. Personal taste it is then?
TBH it's a black because of age, if it was built today it'd be red IMO. A couple of sections would push the current definition of red a little due to high consequence of failure, but not many.
I always feel GT Black has mellowed with age. As originally built, and certainly in comparison to the other trail centres of the time, black was a fair grade (for technical reasons).
The Goat Track had a pretty nasty steep rock-garden (now chicken-runned to death and looks like they've now officially sanctioned goign round it as the "normal" line).
Shane McGowan / Boundary Trail have some sections which are rougher/steeper than most reds.
Deliverance is borderline, but much rougher than most reds. That wee skinny up onto the bridge always freaked me out too.
Ewok Village was an integral part of the trail.
Double X was pretty fair as black.
Black Dog too.
Black option on Falla Brae was pretty fair too (that wee drop-off from the twisty log section used to be a real nemesis of mine!).
That's a fair chunk of the trail which would be pretty fairly graded black, defo enough to give the trail an overall black grade.
Personal taste it is then?
Absolutely. Sure there are some poorly designed, badly executed trails (or parts of them) but in the majority they're extra places to ride. What's to bitch about in that, really?
I'm considering XX/Bitch/Wormhole as basically seperate sections, since they're so out of keeping with the rest of it and just as logical to ride s part of the red as the black- just like the black bit on Falla (which really needs a name... "That bit what used to look like an abandoned pier". Ewok sadly gone 
TBH I rode right past the Goat Track chute the first time- ChrisL had told me to watch out for it as I was still pretty much a noob but I went straight down the chicken line without ever knowing the proper line was there. Think that's the case for a lot of people now.
I went straight down the chicken line without ever knowing the proper line was there. Think that's the case for a lot of people now.
Yeah, it's a shame that. Used to be a cool feature, and pretty challenging for people stepping-up from red to black.
That's a fair chunk of the trail which would be pretty fairly graded black, defo enough to give the trail an overall black grade.
A lot of trails seem to have tamed by the health and safety brigade. Why I still enjoy W2 black it's not super technical but you can get some serious speed. Cmw carn is fast to but too short.
Whistler
Because I'll never get to ride there
Trekster - MemberThose of us who have been riding for years would do as Northwind has done and grade it for an eperienced rider.
I understand why you'd think that but it's not really the case... I rode it for the first time as almost a complete noob. First black trail, longest ride I'd ever done. Couldn't do any of the actual black sections at the end but rode all the rest. I found it harder work but easier on balance than the red, and quite a lot easier than Innerleithen's red (we'd done GT black as a progression towards Inners red! And I did more walking/chickenrunning at inners)
Anyway, getting a wee bit off the topic. But erratic grading is a bit of a pet peeve of mine- it puts people off trails they could otherwise enjoy, and it encourages people to try trails they possibly shouldn't. It's unavoidable in the grand scheme but not so good when it happens within the same centre.
(Nevis is the worst for this... Met a blood-splattered chap walking down nevis red- he did the waymarked 10 Under the Ben red route in the morning so thought he'd be fine on the big red... Poor feller.)
4 pages on the worst trailcentres and only 2 on the best. STW eh?
nick 1962 - the best post (by respones given) I've ever made on STW, so I'm quite proud
Erratic grading? One mans red is another's black.
Lucien,know what you mean.Don't think I've ever had more than a couple of replies but then I usually post late at night.
Anyway this is one more post for you!
BTW I didn't enjoy Whinlatter but I do think Ae is ok and GT is the best by a country mile unless you are more DH orientated and are including DH runs then it has to be Inners 
And this is the point at which the very vocal "why don't you build this and that" Mr Flow, goes very quiet.
I'm not very local, I live two hours away!
Pawsy_Bear - MemberErratic grading? One mans red is another's black.
Understand your point, and in general I agree but I challenge you to find anyone that finds the 10UTB red route as hard as the Nevis Red. Maybe someone with a psychological aversion to fireroads
I'm not very local, I live two hours away!
So do a couple of our trail builders, but I do take your point!
I work around 65 to 70 hrs a week
Hamsterly looks pretty good in that vid
I work around 65 to 70 hrs a week
LOL wrong thread mate
Never rode a trail centre I didn't enjoy. Find Delamere a little boring but then it isn't a trail centre and I'm not a regular there so don't know all the off piste stuff.
Trail centre grading will always be a little bit subjective but it does seem to be a bit inconsistent. Older trails certainly seem to have easier Reds / Blacks than newer ones
Nevis Red DH though is just graded WRONG though!
CYB - Slow, rocky, no flow - I'd bet the type of rider who doesn't like Cwmcarn or Llandegla would like it, Horses for courses...
Agreed.
And regarding the "CyB = original and best" comment...
... yes it was the original and best. My visits since the centre moved across the road have been a massive disappointment.
The original Karrimor and Red Bull trails were ace - perhaps because they were something different at the time, perhaps because they just were damn good. I seriously don't like the rocky armour and lack of rhythm that the CyB trails now have (or at least - last time I visited.
On the other hand - for me, the Afan and Brechfa trails are great.... and out of those the best are / were the easiest - Penhydd and Brechfa Derwen. The "fun" comes from speed and flow. Penhydd at absolutely lung busting flat out was a damn site more entertaining than the other trails at Afan / GC
Skyline - shouldn't really be considered here. Think of Skyline as a "trail centre" trail and it will always be found lacking in terms of smiles per mile. Think of it as a "wilderness" big day out, eg, in the same vein as the Gap.
CYB - Slow, rocky, no flow - I'd bet the type of rider who doesn't like Cwmcarn or Llandegla would like it, Horses for courses...
I like CYB and Llandegla.
So you are telling me, the piss take price of £8.50 to park there, doesn't actually go towards maintaining and building trails?I hate the place even more now.
As a lot of mountain bikers go there to ride, and not just parents with kids, why not make some decent trails and grade them accordingly? At least then it might be worth paying the parking charge, which is f*cking criminal.
I seriously don't get it when people kick off about parking/toll road charges for FC/similar forests. You pay that price to use the forest and all the facilities there not just the trails themselves. Like the play area, cafe, visitors centre, staff's wages etc.
Dalby for example gets more people walking and using the visitors centre than it does the mtb. SO makes sense that more of the money would be spent on those areas with a smaller portion going on the trails. I have a £40 season pass and feel its good value for a years worth of use of the forest.
There are plenty of places to ride for free in the UK that are more fun than trail centres and chances are you'll drive past them to get to a trail centre, 90% of mtbers are too lazy to go exploring and prefer to follow a line.
So we should all pay for the chance to go and spend money in a cafe?
IMO all trails offer something, what it is will depend on your skill, ability and fitness.
The only trail I wouldn't bother visiting again is Carbisdale. Probably wouldn't go out of my way to ride Lee Quarry again, but can see it's great if you're local or there's an event on.
Hamsterley, Kielder and Bedgebury are the only trails (I think) I'm yet to do... sounds like they're worth missing.
3) wharncliffe - nothing for xc
There's loads of excellent XC - but since it's not really a trail centre, it's barely signposted.
It actually amazes me that there are trail builders on here slagging off others trails. WTF??
Regarding the other moans..
1) Costs, how about all the people that moan about how much the FC charge for parking make a list of all the FC centres where cyclists are welcomed and a second one of all the non FC forests that do likewise?
2) Lack on investment in trails: You may have missed the fact, but the FC are currently making about 25% of their staff redundant. There is no money in the kitty. they are however, actively supporting volunteer groups and facilitating opportunities to build trails.
3).... Oh bumbiscuits I can't be bothered .... see here It's not like any of this has ever come up before
That apart, FC linked trail builders how about we hook up and swop knowledge? Tried it via IMBA and it was less than useless to the point that we've canceled our membership.
TIMBER: Thetford
Some of the posts in here are just ridiculous. Trails are designed, built and maintained at great cost, usually with the help of a lot of people volunteering their free time. All this is provided to us free of charge yet some people in here still feel the need to absolutely slate them and have the cheek to moan about paying £3 for parking. Absolutely pathetic.
It actually amazes me that there are trail builders on here slagging off others trails. WTF??
Trouble is, when you've built some stuff it actually becomes very easy to see faults in other trails. Pretty quickly most folks also realise that a trail is often the result of a multitude of compromises throughout the period of development be it time, money, alignmnet, experience etc etc. And then most people shut up or put the comments across in the best way at all possible without telling the poor bugger's who've spent umpteen weekends grafting that their efforts are "crap". They rarely are, but often they can be improved (albeit with hindsight, experience or a disregard for the local practicalities). We've rebuilt (and I hope improved) loads of stuff :blush:
Also, it has to be admitted, (volunteer) trail builders are incredibly prickly about their babies. Often rightly though sometimes not so.
1) Costs, how about all the people that moan about how much the FC charge for parking make a list of all the FC centres where cyclists are welcomed and a second one of all the non FC forests that do likewise?
2) Lack on investment in trails: You may have missed the fact, but the FC are currently making about 25% of their staff redundant. There is no money in the kitty. they are however, actively supporting volunteer groups and facilitating opportunities to build trails.
3).... Oh bumbiscuits I can't be bothered .... see here It's not like any of this has ever come up before
I hear you and agree on some stuff. I do have a bit of a contrary view that it's already public land, publicly funded etc so the kneee jerk response of "just pay parking" isn't always appropriate. Plus there are issues of performance regarding some elements of FC (although I'm sure in many cases we don't know the "full story"). Also, for example, spending umpteen million on Glentress makes some people think some of FC's "work" is rather self serving. They are also, IMO, lacking in some real-world commercial experience / realism.
Saying all that without FC we probably wouldn't have the woods or the trails and I firmly believe that something is better than nothing. I know and talk to a number of FC staff / cycle rangers / local authority rangers etc. I hope everything I've said is balanced and not taken as being too sweeping or in any way deliberately nasty. I'd be the first to agree that some "volunteers" can be utter c8cks too
That apart, FC linked trail builders how about we hook up and swop knowledge? Tried it via IMBA and it was less than useless to the point that we've canceled our membership.
Sounds good, although I think there could be good and not so good ways of doing this. Think we've emailed about it before. I'm always happy to talk though (chairman@singletraction.org.uk).
Pretty much ditto....
Seen our new tool yet??
The boys toy hes riding on isn't bad either
My post way back at the start of this thread wasn't a troll.
Fair enough, it wasn't well worded or thought out.
However I do think trail centres are very crap compared to natural trails. If I want to ride on a surface with that much quarried stone involved, I'll go out on my road bike.
Which reminds me, I quite like Drumlanrig 
The Southern Yeti - MemberHamsterley, Kielder and Bedgebury are the only trails (I think) I'm yet to do... sounds like they're worth missing.
Kielder has some great riding... Just a wee bit hidden in a lot of crap. Basically, the top of Deadwater is an unpleasant fireroad climb, that then goes down... a fireroad! But a derelict, smashed-up fireroad with random patches of deep loose stone, weird cambers, lumps that can just about be jumps and drops... Lots of people just hate it. I think it's quite fun, just not worth the climb.
And then there's the Lonesome Pine trail etc, which are just dull.
But, Deadwater below that final climb is mint- interesting climb, some decently challening features, some nice variety. A technical black-graded climb, woot! Maybe a wee bit of a lack of variety but I really would recommend it. And doing 2 laps- once down the red, once down the black- gives you basically one proper sized loop.
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