What a difference a country makes

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What a difference a country makes

23 posts & 17 voices | Started 6 months ago by atlaz | Latest reply from crashtestmonkey

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atlaz - Member

So I went for a short ride today to clear out the cobwebs and see what the roads are like here in Luxembourg. I'm used to the way drivers are in the UK; invariably in a rush, pushing cyclists towards the verge and ignoring the fact the roads are crap and you need some room.

Slightly ill advisedly I went out in fog this morning but had a working pair of lights and figured I'd ride conservatively. Turns out that Luxembourgish drivers (at least around here) are quite happy to wait for a cyclist before overtaking, will wave you out of junctions ahead of them and generally feel quite safe to be around. This could be a small sample size but not once did anyone make me nervous with how close they were.

So is the combative nature of the roads in the UK a function of something in us Brits or is it just I've landed on a small community of considerate middle-Europeans? Admittedly I lived in SW London/Surrey so probably not the best sample in the UK either

Posted 6 months ago #
cheez0 - Member

What does Luxembourg do?

Posted 6 months ago #
atlaz - Member

Perhaps you could clarify your question. There aren't many people here but I don't think I can tell you what everyone does.

Posted 6 months ago #
wwaswas - Member

I think it just is really.

Posted 6 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

As wasswas says - in that part of Europe cycling is seen as something normal people do and the implied liability thing where in an accident car drivers are assumed at fault unless they can show otherwise has led to a very different attitude to the UK one.

Its a real suprise isn't it when a car gives way to you on a bike

Posted 6 months ago #
IdleJon - Member

TandemJeremy - Member

Its a real suprise isn't it when a car gives way to you on a bike

It's even more of a surprise when both cars coming down a dual carriageway in Belgium stop to allow you to ride across it.

When I tried to indicate in pidgin-Flemish sign language that I thought it was their right of way, they almost got stroppy. 'We've held up the traffic now. You will cross this road whether you like it or not!'

Posted 6 months ago #
epicyclo - Member

Drivers in the Highlands are good too.

So long as you don't ride along Loch Ness, or get in the way of the Stornoway boys when they're rushing to catch the Ullapool ferry.

Posted 6 months ago #
samuri - Member

I remember riding in France for the first time. I was riding along this narrow road for a while and realised no cars had passed me for a bit so I looked behind me and there was this massive queue of cars behind me.

I got really concerned and stopped. A number of the people beeped their horns happily at me as they drove past. The experience continued with people waiting for a long time on narrow roads before passing and generally treating me very well indeed. I had not one person pass me and then immediately turn left in the 3 to 4 weeks I've spent riding in France whereas this will happen on every single road ride in Britain.

French people have a lot of failings (and good points too) but (outside of cities), their roadcraft towards cyclists is great.

Posted 6 months ago #
Pook - Member

there are a lot of people fighting for the same space of road in this country....

Posted 6 months ago #
colournoise - Member

Pook - Member
there are a lot of people fighting for the same space of road in this country....

Even so, non-cyclist drivers in the UK tend to be pretty inconsiderate in general to bikers.

(Hell, the inconsiderate drivers might even be cyclists for all I know. I just like to think they're not, and/or wish bad karma on them if they are).

slainte rob

Posted 6 months ago #
kimbers - Member

Posted 6 months ago #
MrSmith - Member

there are a lot of people fighting for the same space of road in this country...

so that makes the attitude to cyclists in the U.K alright then does it?
only the roads are often not much different in Europe, in some parts (like the Netherlands) the population density is even greater.

in the U.K. the car is king, if you cycle you are either poor or eccentric.
maybe in another 20-30 years we might become more European in outlook.

Posted 6 months ago #
van cough cough - Member

It is something about the British psyche, particularly at the moment.

A significant number of British drivers are anti-bicycle and so use their car as a means to bully or intimidate cyclists. Some of the insane traffic calming methods like 'pinches' also make commuting dangerous. I have realised that it is pointless to be militant about cycling (it's you who will come off worse in any accident that results) and pointless to expect a change in attitude from British drivers. I have also realised that I wouldn't be able to commute to work safely were it not for my illegal use of the pavement. The pavement is there when dozens of cars are not budging an inch on tiny narrow roads. The pavement is there when I need to catch my breath. The pavement is there when I need to recover my senses from a near miss or just get it together after the sheer madness of rush hour. The pavement is there when I don't feel safe.

I live in Reading. Cycling to commute here is **** SH1T. Really dangerous with virtually no cycle paths and crap cycle paths.

The car is king, a really fat oafish selfish **** of a king who wants to brake your bones with his BMW or VW Golf and the government allows it.

Posted 6 months ago #
van cough cough - Member

Come on it's the truth.. just turning left or right at a roundabout on a bicycle.. even if you follw every rule, drivers will not treat you with the respect they give other vehicles. It is British to use the car to intimidate. It is British to get angry in the car.

Posted 6 months ago #
Mackem - Member

The spanish drive like morons, whether you are on a bike or not.

Posted 6 months ago #
KT1973 - Member

Mackem - Member
The spanish drive like morons, whether you are on a bike or not.

some of them do, but luckily where I am it's kitted out with excellent cycle paths and crossings. I'm starting to be able to predict the driving habits when in the car now too- I actually reckon Madrid is better than London to drive in

Posted 6 months ago #
stumpy01 - Member

Cycling in Germany is pretty much as you describe; a pleasure. Lots of main roads have paths next to them so you can quickly travel from town to town safely.
When these paths aren't there, motorists treat you like you are a valid road user & not an inconvenience.

Posted 6 months ago #
Pook - Member

MrSmith, I didn't say it made the attitude of UK drivers acceptable. You made that bit up yourself.

my point is, the frequency of conflict will be greater in this country due to the greater number of cyclist:driver interactions as as result if the aforementioned overcrowding, and the greater number of negative experiences will be compounded by the comparatively smaller number of cyclist drivers we have in the UK compared to continental countries.

Posted 6 months ago #
MrSmith - Member

UK
there are a lot of people fighting for the same space of road in this country...

EUROPE
there are a lot of people sharing the same space of road in this country...

Posted 6 months ago #
Pook - Member

your point being?

more people ride on the continent.

there is more space for people to ride on the continent, and better cycling facilities and thus rider:driver interactions are reduced. So, when they happen, there's less likely to be pent up, previous frustration regarding what in this country would be perceived as conflict over limited space.

edit: kudos on your debating skills though

Posted 6 months ago #
MrSmith - Member

it's not about density/population, europe has several countries and conurbations of equal or greater density than the u.k. it's about attitude, historical culture of the bicycle, media portrayal etc.

i spent a fair bit of time working in Belgium (higher population density than U.K.) despite the large amount of traffic both car and cycle there is no conflict as infrastructure, the fact that most motorists are/were cyclists and having no stigma attached to the cycle means there is little conflict. everyone in Belgium knows who Tom Boonen is.

in the U.K.it's cultural and not just because the roads are busy, bikes are traffic, not something that holds traffic up.

after the war there was a schism between the 2 cycling groups in this country which saw racing on the road banned, this plus social mobility and the accessibility of the car marginalised cycling.

if you expanded the land mass in this country the attitude to the bike will not change because of the sudden availability of more space.

Posted 6 months ago #
molgrips - Member

I think it's a function of road business and how people are feeling. Riding through Cardiff at rush hour, even though the roads are not particularly busy is okay - some impatient drivers and rude people. Later in the evening or in the daytime, it's lovely. Everyone's nice as pie.

I think the UK in parts is very congested and whilst population density is similar to other places I would bet that there are far more commuter miles driven.

I have to admit my experience in Germany was only moderately better than the countryside in the UK. Quite a few dimwits out on the roads, and I got quite a lot of abuse for not using the cycleways even though it is no longer mandatory. Far more than I've ever got in the UK. It was mostly a similar pattern to here - quiet country roads, no problem. Narrow busy rat-runs - impatience and people cutting close.

Segregated cycle facilities are great if you want to pootle. If you want to get somewhere then they are a right pain because people don't want to see you on the roads if they exist.

Posted 6 months ago #
crashtestmonkey - Member

what MrSmith says, cycling is part of the culture in many continental countries, their pros and events are more widely known amongst the population, exemplified by the TdeF for its size and scope and it's reception.

Drivers are at least as aggressive towards each other in other countries, they're just more tolerant of cyclists.

Posted 6 months ago #