bearGrease – Member

But far more of those voters turned out to make sure his ideological vision never happened.

Not the point- this debate got people motivated to vote. I started typing “the highest turnout since” but I think it may actually be the highest UK voting turnout ever, for anything, against a background where 20% of the electorate is enough to select a “majority” government. That’s a big deal- I’m not going to turn up my nose at a victory for democracy, just because people democratically voted for the other side 😉

Here’s an article from Neil Oliver making the point about opposing nationalism in a far more considered way than I did. This quote stands out:

If you’re a Scot, like I think of Scots, then if you find the way to the promised land, you take everyone with you, not just the few. We go as a United Kingdom or we don’t go at all. That’s the Scottish way.

I have little time for this year’s crop of politicians. However, my hackles do go up when nationalism rears its head. Some Scots claim to be saying a “quiet” Yes to independence that has nothing to do with Alex Salmond. For me, that claim is disingenuous. There is a river running through Britain now and it has the power to force us apart. That river is nationalism and it is rising all the time. We must cross that river, all of us – English, Irish, Scots and Welsh.

Not the point

It is the point. Alec Salmond put forward a insular, small minded proposal, subverted the Scottish Government in attempts to shore it up and come referendum day it was roundly dismissed by Scots who have a wider world view.

So in only a few hours the tories are not only back-tracking on promises made

The other day at work I suggested a timescale for something, but I had to revise it once I knew more about the issue. No-one questioned my competence or integrity though.

Political language and rhetoric is a far bigger problem than people realise.

The other day at work I suggested a timescale for something, but I had to revise it once I knew more about the issue.

What new information will Cameron, Miliband et al have received that could push the timetable back? Apart from the fact that they’ve got sod all chance of getting any extra powers for Scotland through parliament, but they knew that already.

What new information will Cameron, Miliband et al have received that could push the timetable back?

They’ve thought about it a bit more – obviously. Or perhaps they’re delaying to allow them to lean on their parties a bit more.

You’ve really no idea what goes on in there, so making cynical pronouncements just makes your arguments a bit more lightweight, I’m afraid.

They made rash promises to secure a No vote. we said that they were rash promises that they wouldn’t keep. We were told that they were real and serious this time. We said pull the other one. We were told that there was a proper timetable agreed by all parties.

As I’m sure I’ll have to say many times: we told you so.

I have a feeling we’ll be saying “we told you so” for a long time.

Looking at George Square, so do I….

If the Yes campaign made rash promises what on earth were the fantasies the Yes campaign promised?

Looking at George Square, so do I….

On that, I completely agree.

I like the way a new narrative appears… Yes was heading for victory until the Vow appeared. I’m not sure that was the case. There was only one poll which put Yes ahead, within the margin of error. Then the polls went back to what they had been and the final vote showed No as any stronger than the polls. I don’t know of any No voter who changed their minds following the intervention (small sample admittedly) and I doubt that many No’s will feel betrayed if this all turns outgo be a political fib. I appreciate that there is disappointment for the Yes side, I just sense that there is a ready made grievance in the offing.

The Yes campaign keeps getting referred to as being insular, small minded, inward looking. That IME is not the case at all, it was really quite internationalist in its outlook. Yes being rejected has been portrayed as being petty nationalism being defeated. It wasn’t, it was just a different type of nationalism that won.

It wasnt Yes that was having marches in support involving sectarian organisations or demonstrations with neo-fascists turning up and giving Nazi salutes and so on. None of this got much coverage in the media though, and the likes of David Cameron were never asked to condemn the idiots on fringes of Better Together in the way that Alex Salmond had to answer for the idiot fringe in the Yes campaign.

Live from George Square right now, the all inclusive, outward looking No support in full effect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86lrybeUXIg

If the Yes campaign made rash promises what on earth were the fantasies the Yes campaign promised?

The No promises were broken within 24 hours – we’ll never know if the Yes promises would last, but that’s got to be a record.

Oh, and here’s some lovely No supporters who just stormed into George Square letting off flares:

I’m probably going to be called racist for posting that image…

Yes, clearly.. 2 million people are right-wing football hooligans.

No just selective Ben, come on lose graciously.

Promises broken……….? 😀

Yes, clearly.. 2 million people are right-wing football hooligans.

Yes, that’s exactly what I said.

But that is what you would indirectly like to imply.

Anyone else in the square Ben or are they chanting jnto space?

No just selective Ben, come on lose graciously.

I’m afraid that’s an accurate picture of the vast majority of the ‘No’ celebratory team there at George Square.

Anyone else in the square Ben or are they chanting jnto space?

There were some peaceful Yes people there, had been for hours, who are now trying to leave but are surrounded on three sides.

Yes, clearly.. 2 million people are right-wing football hooligans.

No one said that. Its about how the wider Yes campaign and Salmond got repeatedly linked in the media (and directly by the No campaign too) for a very small number of idiots on the fringes whereas the No campaign and Cameron weren’t linked and associated to their lunatic fringe. The coverage gave impression that Yes were full of extremists and No were just a silent, law abiding majority.

The Yes campaign was ahead – against the No. But setting aside the “don’t knows”. Of which there was a substantial number – 7-8-9 % or so??

That’s a big momentum to shift, like a wall of water inside a ship..

Lets just hope we don’t get a surge of English Nationalism rearing it’s ugly head.

“English Votes For English Laws” tagline bandied about so far.

We’re already there

So the suggestion of an English parliament, which is perfectly sensible and clearly democratic, is “English Nationalism rearing it’s ugly head” ?

Some people really crack me up with their hypersensitive nonsensical PC bollocks ! 😆

@benc I know the Yes campaign are boycotting the BBC for asking Wee Eck some hard questions but does that mean you have had to get your impartial world news from Russia Today?

I guess if Yes had won the SBC would have been run by paragon of the free press and Salmond pal R. Murdoch, so perhaps RT isn’t too bad in comparison.

I also guess that if Yes had won The Bigot Soutar would have been put in charge of education policy to oversee equality in a “free” Scotland.

Good job you guys lost.

Oh, don’t be silly.

Nothing silly about it. The SNP has some very dubious allies.

So the suggestion of an English parliament, which is perfectly sensible and clearly democratic, is “English Nationalism rearing it’s ugly head” ?

Some people really crack me up with their hypersensitive nonsensical PC bollocks !

Didn’t you know, Ernest, English nationalism is all nasty racists, while Scottish nationalism is a heroic noble cause.

(I agree with you in full, by the way! )

Nothing silly about it. The SNP has some very dubious allies.

Find me any who are doing Nazi salutes and singing sectarian songs.

I think the fact that people around the UK are discussing devolution for regions is a success story of the referendum. We need the vision and drive of the Yes side channelled positively now more than ever. We all need you not to stand back and wait to say “I told you so”.

They’re football fans.

Murdoch is a billionaire on a mission to give the British state a black eye. Scotland would have been minor collateral damage to him.

Believe me, I’d love more than anything not to have to say I told you so. Oddly, one person I found myself agreeing with last night was John Redwood, when he called for a proper federal system of government.

They’re football fans.

Not sure if you’re naive or trolling. They’re sectarian bigots doing Nazi salutes, singing sectarian songs, taunting the few Yes people left, and waving “No Thanks” signs – as well as being football fans.

They’re not Partick Thistle supporters on a pub crawl.

I’m enjoying the ascii skeletons in the youtube live feed, it’s good to see the silent text-based skeleton vote finally being recognised.

For comparison, this was George Square yesterday:

Find me any who are doing Nazi salutes and singing sectarian songs.

I can find you a picture of a polling station with ‘No voters will be shot’ and ‘vote Yes or else’ graffitied on it. Or numerous pictures of Yes supporters burning the Union flag.

But carry on claiming that Yes voters are all better people if it helps sooth your bitterness.

I like the way a new narrative appears… Yes was heading for victory until the Vow appeared. I’m not sure that was the case.

+1

Seems to have basis in reality but comforting for some I suppose.

And I’d stop using the phrase ‘I told you so’ if I were you – you also said that Yes was going to win, whereas lots of people told you it wasn’t going to happen.

Are we posting pictures ? Here’s some Flemish nazi supporters/allies of the Yes Campaign

Come on Ben that lad in the blue coat is pointing with his finger that’s not a Nazi Salute. Your seeing what you want to see.

From the BBC website:

19:33: More on George Square A Police Scotland spokeswoman has said that there are approximately 100 people from each side in George Square in Glasgow.
There has been some minor disorder which has been dealt with quickly, with no arrests.
The square is closed to traffic with local diversions in place.

I guess you won’t get that from RT.

But carry on claiming that Yes voters are all better people if it helps sooth your bitterness.

I’m not bitter, I’m shocked and deeply saddened – partly by the No result of course, but mostly by this cancer in our society. It’s a problem for everyone, but to try to pretend that they’re not No supporters is just ridiculous.

There are many good, decent No voters, but some aren’t, and the worst of them are far, far worse than the occasional egg thrower in the Yes camp.

I can do the selective thing too, look:

In Clydebank, one Yes supporter, aged 44, was arrested by police after allegedly assaulting a man he believed would be voting No. He is due to appear at Dumbarton Sheriff Court this morning.

In Hamilton, a councillor arguing for a No vote was abused by a passer-by and then chased through a shopping centre. Monica Lennon said: “It’s really, really intimidating. For someone in politics, your tolerance level tends to be a bit higher than ordinary members of the public, but a line was crossed.

Mark Ferguson, the editor of LabourList, said he had been spat at while campaigning in Leith, north Edinburgh.

Mr Ferguson said: “This is indicative of the febrile mood here. My only “crime” was to be stood outside the Better Together office. I wasn’t wearing a badge, holding a leaflet or even campaigning (not that any of these activities would have justified being spat at either). This is the kind of intimidation and vile aggression that’s on show from some people today.”

Business leaders and organisations representing Scotland’s commercial sector have also reported threats and intimidation in recent weeks after 133 business executives signed a pro-Union petition.

‘Yes’ and ‘No’ voters protest (Getty Images) ‘Yes’ and ‘No’ voters protest (Getty Images)
A prominent businessman, Charles Ritchie, the founder of the Score Group, said that his family and employees had suffered months of abuse and intimidation from Yes supporters.

“The sinister intimidation started on 24 June, which was when the first of a number of hoax bomb calls began and hoax letter bombs were delivered to me,” he told the Scottish Research Society.

“These led to his obvious concern for family and employees, especially when my grandson and nephew were followed and threatened”

He said: There has been constant destruction and defacing of No campaign posters and signs by my offices in Peterhead and Fraserburgh, which I and my employees witnessed being carried out by balaclava wearing activists.”

Therefore – Yes voters are dicks, No supporters are angels. Wow this is really easy.