The odd douchbag getting killed once in a while hopefully serves as a half decent deterrent.

Not a chance.

Just like the death penalty doesn’t work as a deterrent, that won’t either.

So it’s just being pleased that some people died I’m afraid.

…..the skill and bravery of the matadors and the banderillos is breathtaking. These bulls are bred and trained for fighting and the toreador confronts death or serious injury head on every day.

Yes but it is heavily stacked in their favour, what are their chances of actually dying? Fairly small I would imagine, while in contrast the bull is almost certain to die.

And there are other ways to show how brave you are.

But it is morally and logically deficient to celebrate the bullfighters pain and suffering if you think him causing pain and suffering to the bull is wrong.

Again, confusing opinion with fact.
It’s morally wrong to stick swords in a bull’s arse for entertainment. Any unforeseen consequences of that are hard luck and worthy of mockery. In my opinion, of course. Whatever yours is, won’t change mine.

Not a chance.

You’re right but fear not; Health and safety will get them in the end!!!!!

So it’s just being pleased that some people died I’m afraid.

In the context of the tiger poachers, you’re absolutely right again. I am indeed pleased.

I’ve shot lots of bunnies.
And wood pigeons.
They all got eaten by someone.
On the whole, I really enjoyed the whole thing.

I was invited to shoot rats at a stables once.
I didn’t like it at all.

I’m not surprised. Bunnies and wood pigeons are one thing but why would you want to shoot and eat rats?

So it’s just being pleased that some people died I’m afraid

exactly.

Again, confusing opinion with fact.

No its a fact that if you think pain and suffering are wrong, then celebrating it makes you contradict yourself.

In my opinion, of course. Whatever yours is, won’t change mine.

That’s sad because I am open minded to change mine, you just have not convinced me.
If you take the attitude of disagreeing with me by just stating “that’s your opinion”, its no longer a discussion, its just contrariness.
Convince me.

Yes but it is heavily stacked in their favour, what are their chances of actually dying? Fairly small I would imagine, while in contrast the bull is almost certain to die.

True, but they have also stacked those odds through training and years of experience. If you or I got in with 3/4 of a tonne of fighting bull, I’d imagine the odds would be heavily stacked the other way.

Like I said, abhorrent but utterly awe inspiring.

I have been to a bull based event in Bordeaux . It involved a bill blokes in fancy outfits capes the whole ole thing when the bulls charged the cape and some spectacular jumps over the horns plus the odd cowardly running away and hiding from what I assume was a pissed off bovine it seemed to cover all the Bullfighting bases save for the torture and killing .
I can’t say I agreed with the event, just as I object to steeplechases I’m sure the animals at the Center of the spectacle were not volunteers and could have thought of better things to do with their time , but it was a damn sight less unedifying than the drawn out ritual killing of a wounded animal for pleasure.

Convince me.

Read the rest of the thread? watch a bullfight?
I suppose, the difference is (as in a lot of cases on stw), what someone else thinks doesn’t concern me in the slightest.

If you or I got in with 3/4 of a tonne of fighting bull, I’d imagine the odds would be heavily stacked the other way.

Yes but it would be even more “utterly awe inspiring”, since it is the danger and courage which makes it so.

Training and years of experience to minimise the risks sounds a bit like cheating to me.

Walking into a bullring knowing that you will almost certainly walk out of it alive and uninjured doesn’t sound as courageous as walking into one knowing that you have as much chance as the bull.

I’m not defending it, for the third time, it’s utterly wrong. But comparing a provincial bull event in Bordeaux to San Isidro at Las Ventas is like comparing the local amdram doing HMS Pinafore to La Traviata at La Scala. Both opera, but there the similarity ends.

I’m finding this really hard because it feels like I’m defending the indefensible, and I’m not. But at the same time it was an amazing thing to have seen once, barring the clear and obvious bit that makes me wish it didn’t exist.

Does that make any sense at all?

Read the rest of the thread? watch a bullfight?

Done that. This is a bit weak, can’t you justify what you think? Don’t you have the ability to defend or even prosecute what you believe?

I suppose, the difference is (as in a lot of cases on stw), what someone else thinks doesn’t concern me in the slightest.

Its not a case of concerning me, its just sensible to explore outside the boundaries of your own head. I often seek the understanding of others to better understand myself. That’s why I am asking you, to see what I may have missed. I am happy to be convinced that I am wrong.

Walking into a bullring knowing that you will almost certainly walk out of it alive and uninjured

Quick Google suggests that on any particular day there’s about a 10% chance of injury. Given there are usually 3 matadors on the bill, that’s around a 1/30 chance that a particular matador will get hurt. That’s not ‘almost certain’ to me, that to me is a high likelihood that in say a year of bullfights you’ll get gored at some point.

Also read that the reason there aren’t many deaths is because each bullring has by law to have an operating theatre staffed and ready. Might be some comfort to know you’ll be well looked after, but still wouldn’t convince me into the ring.

I reckon what would convince me not to go into the ring is the utter pointlessness of teasing a scared and far less intelligent (than the average human but close enough to me I reckon – I might just have the edge) animal until it’s exhausted, whereupon I kill it with some fancy swords – all for the entertainment for a baying mob of Neanderthals who like to elevate the whole act to some form of courage and intellectuality. I think that much might just convince me not to do it. (I’m kinda scared of bulls too.)

Quick Google suggests that on any particular day there’s about a 10% chance of injury.

To be fair there is probably about a 10% chance of injury every time I go to work.

We do not eat for pleasure – eating is a necessity.

But we do eat animals for pleasure, eating meat is not a necessity (in this country at least). Except in atypical situations, the only reason to eat meat is because you like it.

Which, y’know, is absolutely fine. But don’t dress it up as something it’s not.

I reckon what would convince me not to go into the ring is the utter pointlessness of teasing a scared and far less intelligent (than the average human but close enough to me I reckon – I might just have the edge) animal until it’s exhausted, whereupon I kill it with some fancy swords – all for the entertainment for a baying mob of Neanderthals who like to elevate the whole act to some form of courage and intellectuality. I think that much might just convince me not to do it. (I’m kinda scared of bulls too.)

What might convince you to change your mind is the amount that top bullfighters earn – local (to me) boy José Tomás earns something like a minimum of 300,000€ for an afternooon’s work; in Ventas or one of the other top rings that might go up to 450,000€. He’s a top bullfighter, a household name in Spain. But even a lesser known torero will still earn a decent amount.

Bullfighters earn lots. Who knew. 😀

(Still wouldn’t convince me, though I imagine plenty would have the kind of moral flexibility to change their minds.)

Bullfighters earn lots. Who knew

😀

We all have our price 8)

You mean like the yummy pig that died for my breakfasting pleasure? (Locally sourced happy pigs by the way! )

As long as you performed some sort of traditional ritual like stabbing it with a knife and fork, just to make sure it wasn’t going to leap off the plate and attack you, then that’s all right.

Whether the bull is going to end up on someone’s dinner plate is not really the issue for me, its the song and dance that’s performed to get it to its final resting place.

Hey! Is Fran coming out to play?