Was worryingly good
I utterly despise the boneheaded fcuktards - and their crass "understanding" of this country's history.
The leaflet that came thru my door had some made-up quote from "a doctor", bemoaning the impact of immigration upon the NHS. That would be the same NHS that has been staffed (and sustained) by vast numbers of skilled foreign nurses and medics, ever since its inception.
Their arguments must be heard and debunked. Simply putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "Nazi" will not fix the problem. Allow Griffin on Question Time etc and let them speak. It's like knowing you're going to be sick but avoiding the gurgling stomach, you know it has to happen before you will recover. The big three parties are ignoring real issues and this is allowing the BNP to make real progress. This proves that the "fingers in the ears" approach isn't working. If their arguments can be ripped to shreds then what on earth is there to be worried about? The current approach is drawing them more support so it aint working is it?
Oh and before you respond, get stuffed RB.
noteeth:
The leaflet that came thru my door had some made-up quote from "a doctor", bemoaning the impact of immigration upon the NHS.
the same NHS that has been staffed (and sustained) by vast numbers of skilled foreign nurses and medics, ever since its inception.
It's funny how they use that example. Many of these medical staff we are referring to are from developing nations, many of them having been trained at home on their own countries limited resources only to up and leave for a better income and standard of living here, thus impoverising the developing nations further.
I didn't know the BNP had such an element of international altruism.
The BNP aren't worthy of 2 pages worth of bandwidth.
A BNP vote is a wasted vote.
The end.
A BNP vote is a wasted vote.
I hope you're right Mike, I really do.
Personally I've already started nagging mates and family to get out there and vote on the 4th of June as if they don't, then voter apathy could well hand them quite a few seats.
there are plenty of people voting for them who aren't racist nazis.
Yep, agreed. Don't ever underestimate how ill-informed some people can be. Whilst undoubtedly all BNP members are indisputably racists, you would be surprised just how many people are seduced by their lies. The BNP always publicly claims to be non-racist.
And at the other end of the scale I've known plenty of working-class people to claim that they are racist, when in fact they're not.
Many a time I've challenged a racist remark with a comment like, "what about your mate Mick, he's black ?" and I've got an answer back "yeah but that's Mick - he's different" then I say "what about Mr & Mrs Patel at the paki shop - do you want to send them back ?" and I get "No, no, not them - they're ok, I like them"......and so on. And I think, wake up mate, you're not a **** racist.
Middle-class people generally know full well that racism is unacceptable, and therefore go to great lengths to deny that they are racist, even though they often clearly are. Which is probably why just about everyone on here has denounced the BNP, including those which I would put down as probable racists. And those 'probable racists' have felt that the best that they could achieve, was to remind everyone that whilst they didn't support the BNP, the BNP had a right to express there views and should be given the opportunity to speak. The big give away is when those same people, don't feel the need to extend those same rights, to militant muslims.
On the other hand some working class feel that it is their duty to proudly announce that they racist, even though they might not be. Plus it has the added advantage of not appearing 'politically correct', something which the gutter-press claims is wicked and unacceptable. Although in my experience working-class people are hugely more tolerant of other people's race, class, and religion, than many middle-class people are.
Ernie,how can you say I've missed the point and that it's just the tip of the iceberg?? I know exactly what sort of people we're dealing with.....but the "respectable" parties have kept the Telegraph going for nearly two weeks with their swindling.
Away from the middle/chattering classes...and MTB forums 
the BNP do have sympathisers,scarey but true.
the "respectable" parties have kept the Telegraph going for nearly two weeks with their swindling.
TBH, and I am being honest ..... I am not hugely bothered by some Tory grandee claiming a few bob for having his moat cleaned. I am however, hugely bothered by a criminal thug getting elected onto a council or the European Parliament.
Ernie,it might not bother you,or Stephen Fry :P,but it has pissed a lot of people off. Maybe you're out of kilter with the general consensus.
....And what about UKIP? racists from "nicer" backgrounds and more expensive suits?
I think you've summed up UKIP very nicely there Young Dave riley 
Although in my experience working-class people are hugely more tolerant of other people's race, class, and religion, than many middle-class people are.
Yeah, bloody intolerant middle class - they're the ones to blame, the intolerant ****. I really hate their intolerance.
FFS.
How did CRASS so eloquently put it? "Middle class, working class, it's all a load of shit."
Thanks for pointing out to me that we in fact live in a classless society andrew.
I don't know how I came to be so confused.
I find it reassuring that people who like bikes tend to not like racists. lovely stuff
Give me a hard working,tax paying,contributing "immigrant" any day of the week over a white,beer swilling,unemployed/unemployable scrounger....even if he can drink 10 pints and wears union jack shorts !
Thanks for pointing out to me that we in fact live in a classless society
Um, that's not what was being pointed out. What was being pointed out was that false categories which are treated as natural, biological traits are effective at dividing people and breeding hatred. Class, like race, is one of them and one used to divide people and breed hatred and mistrust. That's not the same as saying we live in a classless society.
roddersrambler - i agree totally, if immigrants want to come here to improve their lives great, they are the ones that keep this country running as the most of the unemployed here wouldn't do their jobs for anything.
There was a program on tv here a while back interviewing people in peterborough. The local scum refused to work on the land have seemed particularly interested in the good wages. Once they found out what the job was they said they would rather be on JSA.
In my mind can we swap immigrants for the ones who refuse to work.
Those who cannot work for real reasons are entitled to help, it could happen to anyone.
Couldn't agree less andrew. Classes aren't 'false categories' they are real - as real as racial categories. And recognising them need not 'breed hatred and mistrust'. As the divisions already exist, recognising classes does not mean that it is 'used to divide people' in a negative way. Ignoring class differences is not helpful and does not contribute to progress.
Classes aren't 'false categories' they are real - as real as racial categories.
So, um, racial differences are real are they? That puts you squarely in the BNP camp which is somewhere I doubt you'd want to be; 'race' is an invention of 19th century pseudo sciences with roots in physiognomy and was solidified as a set of categories in works such as John Beddoe’s (1862) The Races of Man (with a measure of 'nigressence') or J. C. Nott and G. R. Gliddon's (1868) Indigenous Races of the Earth. 'Science' created and categorised racial difference. The construction of racial categories *did* precede this and most contemporary commentators tend to agree that the 'othering' (see Edward Said, Orientalism) of Sub-Saharan peoples coincided with and was used to legitimise Europe's widescale early modern adoption of slavery. Nonetheless it was during the 19th century that scientific 'proof' consolidated 'race' as a viable category. It still persists, particularly in psychology: articles published in the last couple of years by Linda Gottfredson, J. Philippe Rushton and Arthur Jenson use racial genetic difference as an explanation of intelligence differences between populations. They are, of course, marginal figures and their findings rejected but it is wrong to suggest that 'race' is 'unscientific'. Science helped to create 'race' and scientists persist in attempting to maintain it.
Class, equally, is a concept used by self-serving powermongers on the right and left to divide and rule people. Whether it be the Leninist dreamer who revels in the image of them leading the vanguard (because the scum can't be trusted to lead themselves) or the Thatcherite who promulgates the idea of a 'classless society' (and thereby relying utterly on the discursive categories of 'class' to maintain their rhetoric).
Just as the effects of 'race' are real, the effects of 'class' are also real but that doesn't make the categories real it simply shows them to be ideological. There is no innate biological 'class'. It is not written into our DNA, it is not something we have at birth. We are taught the illusions as we grow and they become one amongst many prisonhouses for our minds. There is no freedom that will come from placing people in false categories be they 'race', 'class', 'nation' or whatever.
So, um, racial differences are real are they?
Chances are that come the next Olympics all the finalists in the 100m running will be black and all the finalists in the 100m swimming will be white. So yes, as un-PC as it might be there are differences between races. It comes down to whether you use those differences to promote hatred, or whether you celebrate the fact we're all different.
Andrew, good post. "Race" is an invented concept and in reality people are likely to have a real mix of ethnic backgrounds that defies simple categorisation as "black", "Asian" or "white".
KennyP, there are other possible explanations for the scenario you describe. For example, when was the last time that a white 100m sprinter captured the public's imagination and inspired kids to take up the sport? It might seem that certain "races" are naturally better at certain things, but then you have a Tiger Woods or a Lewis Hamilton come along and blow all these theories out of the water.
Good post Andrew.
But surely in the case of Woods and Hamilton they are taking part in sports where skill is a major factor, whereas with swimming and running it is strength? That's not to say there are no good white sprinters or black swimmers, but I do think that denying there are differences between races doesn't help promote racial understanding.
Race isn't an "invented concept" in the same way you can't deny there are all sorts of breeds of dogs. All races have their strengths and weaknesses which overall I reckon makes for a better world overall, even if there are some folk who use those differences to push an agenda of hatred.
Kenyp, I don't get what you're saying there. So basically black people dominate at one sport which requires massive power and unbelieveable aerobic fitness, whereas white people dominate at another with exactly the same requirements, just with water thrown in? It's more likely that people are steered towards a sport, either through wanting to do what their heroes do or through the influence of coaches, teachers, etc.
Saying that black people make good runners or white people are good at swimming is a very shallow observation and just serves to pigeonhole people. The "breed of dog" metaphor doesn't apply here because show dogs can't choose reproductive parters. In fact many of them are massively inbred and have genetic defects as a result.
Sorry, but swimming and running require very different muscle groups. I was trying to make the point that to deny racial differences, albeit with the very best of intentions, is to deny science. I'm not claiming racial superiority for any one race, merely pointing out that there are differences between people, and that running and swimming highlight that fact.
I'm not on here as an apologist for the BNP as I find them pretty repugnant, I'm merely trying to point out that I think it's wrong to deny obvious science. Take Oriental folk for example, who I believe are largely intolerant to many dairy foods. If I had a group of friends coming from Japan to stay with me then I would use the fact they are racially different to come up with a suitable diet ie science there would be a good thing.
I would just ask them if they had any allergies. Grouping everyone in the world (6.7 billion people according to a quick Google) into 4 or 5 rather murky categories is not very helpful when dealing with individuals.
Going back to the earlier threads about posties delivering these leaflets....
We were briefed this morning that a postie in another district of Bradford was attacked yesterday for delivering the BNP propaganda.
Bradford Norths delivery office are having to go out at 6.00am to deliver them in the Manningham area before everybody wakes up as a safety precaution.
i would make some kind of don't shoot the messenger joke but really not appropriate.
shame on whoever did that! poor postie has deliver shite leaflets that he probably doesn't believe or want to and then gets shit for it!
racial differences are real are they? That puts you squarely in the BNP camp which is somewhere I doubt you'd want to be; 'race' is an invention of 19th century.........There is no innate biological 'class'.
Firstly ...... I don't check what the BNPs position is on any given topic before deciding what my own position should be, and I am somewhat surprised that you presumably do. For example the BNP is opposed EU membership but despite that, I am also opposed to the EU. Because quite frankly I couldn't give a toss what the BNP's position is, nor whether it puts me in 'the BNP camp' as you call it. I'm hardly likely to come out in favour of the EU simply because the opposite position to the BNP. So no, you're wrong - I'm not bothered.
I'm also not in the least bit bothered whether race is 'an invention of 19th century'. Racial categories exist, simple as. The experiences of a white person are often quite different to the experiences of a black person. These are not 'false' differences - they are very real differences. Pretending otherwise is completely unproductive. Unless of course possibly, you're determined to preserve the status quo.
I did not at anytime mention 'biological classes' as you put it - you did that. The classes which I am referring to are purely social classes and categories. And until we live in a non-racial, classless world, I'm not going to stick my head in the sand pretending that class and racial differences don't exist.
Whilst ultimately I might well be described as an 'idealist', I insist on keeping a firm grip on reality and don't believe that you can overcome social differences and injustices by simply 'wishing them away' through propagating some sort of intellectual theory which claims that they don't exist.
Slight diversion - Dr Alice was investigating a long standing belief in Chinese scientific circles that they descended from homo erectus in a different line to that of modern homosapiens. But, recent genetic test have proven otherwise, linking them back to the same band that Dr Alice says wandered out of Africa.
So at some point in ancient history Mr Griffin's ancestory would stretch back to a common group from which both he, and those whom his merry little band of confused individuals spout such bile, have descended.
It would seem that it is just about where an arbitrary line is drawn.
I hope he has been watching "The Battle for Middle Earth" on C4 because the way those Normans treated our good old Ango Saxon forefathers was shocking - deport all those called Norman I say!
So at some point in ancient history Mr Griffin's ancestory would stretch back to a common group from which both he, and those whom his merry little band of confused individuals spout such bile, have descended.
Yes you do.
But, as with all evolution of a species, some branches continue to evolve and others don't.
So you mean I share some genes with him?
Well bearing in mind that you share 50% of your DNA with a banana and 80% with a spineless invertebrate,
I wouldn't get too worked up about it.
We've got a mayoral candidate who is from the British National Front. Talks about his parties policy of deporting all 'coloured' people from the UK. And stopping any more mosques being built. And I thought the BNP were bad (which they are obviously...)
Two observations:
I will refrain from commenting on the BNP as I don't actually know what their policies are (say on education or tax) - I presume all previous posters have familiarised themselves with the BNP manifesto before coming to their conclusions...
The BNP do however appear to be convenient bogeymen to deflect public opinion away from the disgusting shambles that the established parties have got us and themselves into. I would have thought that the scale of the cynicism and at times possible outright criminality exhibited by our current elected representatives far outweighs anything the minority parties have been guilty of to date...
This topic has been closed to new replies.
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