So I’m on the pie-deficient end of the natural insulation scale, and have a side order of crap circulation.

Off skiing in Val D’Isere in a couple of weeks time, and it’s looking chuffin’ chilly there. Previous ski trips I’ve been “OK” by layering up a heavy base layer, thickish fleece, fleece gilet, Goretex shell. Its been fine for skiing in, as there’s plenty of vents if I’m in the sun, but not especially warm as soon as I end up on a lift in the wind. I can’t get much more on without turning into the Michelin man.

So is there anything in the “bloody warm, but still breathable, active fit AND not too bulky*” line for midlayers? I’ve been looking at things like the North Face Thermoball Active jacket, Montane Fusion Alpha jacket, etc. Any warmer than a fleece? I have a Mountain Equipment Switch gilet which is bloody warm for its thin-ness and pack size – sadly the jacket version is tight across the shoulders. Would prefer no down.

Thanks!

*with a side order of moon-on-a-stick please.

Down is your friend. Warmest thing for a given weight.
I would get a compressible one, pop it on when you need, in rucksack when not.

Have you both longjohns and thermal top? Look at Patagonia’s expedition weight Capeline base layers, including the amazing onesie….

Helly “Warm” merino base layers and normal Helly LJs under my Salopettes.

Would prefer to avoid down as it’ll be less use the rest of the year in the UK when it’s soggy all the time.

Down is not very breathable on account of it being sandwiched between two layers of windproof, calendared fabric. Ditro Thermoball. Best thing I’ve used for a balance of breathabilty and insulation is Polartec’s Alpha stuiff. The Rab Paradox is good for layering, not the most durable thing around, but works well as a mid layer, kind of a better alternative to a fleece. Not super warm, but okay.

PrimaLoft’s answer is PrimaLoft Active, but in my experience it’s not very breathable compared to Alpha. The Alpkit Katabatic is decent, a bit more breathable than standard Primaloft or down.

Patagonia’s Nano Air stuff might work, not very wind resistant, but quite warm and breathes well. There’s a Black Diamond equivalent called the First Light, but unless they’ve changed the design, the non-adjustable helmet hood makes it useless for general use. They do a jacket now as well. Both expensive brands, but decent kit.

And if you want to go back to the 80s, Buffalo… awful cut, hugely bulky, very warm. Someone’ll be a long in a minute to tell you to team one with a pair of Ron Hill Tracksters…

Helly “Warm” merino base layers and normal Helly LJs under my Salopettes.

Would prefer to avoid down as it’ll be less use the rest of the year in the UK when it’s soggy all the time.

Merino base layers are the very definition of soggy. A Brynje string vest below them however…

Simond warm jacket synthetic fill, base layer gilet and that, put on shell if needed. Available at decathlon

I think something like the katabatic would work.

The Katabatic’s pretty good tbh, Better value than the Patagonia and BD stuff and does a similar job with more wind resistance. Polartec Alpha tends not to be as warm, but is a load more breathable as a rule.

When you say “thickish fleece and fleece gilet” how thing are we talking? Some of the high loft very thick fleeces like the Mountain Hardwear Monkeyman are super warm under a shell but breathe well and will dump heat if you open vent on the shell.

Or Buffalo / Montane Extreme. The Alpha jackets are the same concept, especially the ones without a liner, just updated for lower weight and bulk (and much higher price).

Or you could replace the Goretex shell (it isn’t going to rain so why do you need a not very breathable waterproof?) with something warmer and more breathable – like a Paramo Enduro (for many many pounds but still waterproof) or a Paramo Torres Activo or Alpkit Katabatic or Apogee.

Using the Brynje base layers under your usual base layers is a pretty good idea – they are super warm.

Regarding avoiding down, I got my wife an Alpkit Filoment down jacket last year. It’s been worn in so much wet weather and always been great – the difference is the down is water repellent, it has some kind of Nikwax treatment. It’s incredible – it’s like all the pros of down and synthetic in one garment. They’re not expensive and you could replace your Goretex with it for skiing.

Any thoughts on this?

https://www.montane.co.uk/mens-c1/clothing-c25/insulation-c6/hi-q-luxe-pro-pull-on-p267 ?

FWIW I don’t find the Helly Merino base layers soggy – they’re a mix of wool and normal Helly stuff I think.

I think the fleece panelling on that will be quite light. You would be better if with ‘max warm’ rather than ‘zoned for working hard’ as that is. I think.

Replace the “thickish” fleece with a couple of thin ones, IME any of the so-called “micro” fleeces are much the same when worn as a mid layer so just get something cheap from Decathlon. Down’s great but as BWD says, the downproof inner and outer shell limits breathability.

I have a Patagonia NanoPuff that I wear underneath my Down Jacket when it’s below about -20C (I live in Canada). It’s very good and makes a noticeable difference. It’s not very wind resistant so would be best underneath a Goretex for sitting on a chilly lift.

Are you cold all over or just hands / feet due to poor circulation? If it’s hands then mitts are the way forward. I use Black Diamond Mercury Mitts.

Boots – Loosen them on the lift to get more circulation.

Wouldnt a padded jacket be too bulky?

I have one of these montane alpine jackets, its a thin fleece with a pertex exterior very compact and works nicely under an outer jacket.

https://www.montane.co.uk/mens-c1/alpine-equaliser-jacket-p342

Add a down gillet,jacket or waterproof to suit the conditions.

So is there anything in the “bloody warm, but still breathable, active fit AND not too bulky*” line for midlayers?

The main sticking point with adding insulation without adding bulk, is that insulation is created by holding a layer of air static around your body. The thicker that layer, the better the insulation. With your existing layers of fleece etc the air won’t be moving much so you can only add warmth by increasing the thickness of the insulation, which requires more bulk.

More collapsible forms of insulation will feel less bulky but you need to have the space within your goretex for them to expand so they work optimally.

If you were carrying a pack then you could overlayer for the low exertion times but that’s not practical for skiing. I think you’ll have the best results from replacing the goretex with an insulated, windproof and ventable jacket. Maybe even a ski jacket?! 😉

Don’t forget your legs and feet, especially as you have poor circulation!

I woudl go for more fleece – but ditch the gore-tex and replace with a light windshell.

Haglof LIM barrier, love mine
https://climbinggearreviewsuk.wordpress.com/2015/01/13/haglofs-l-i-m-barrier-pro-hood/

The thicker that layer, the better the insulation. With your existing layers of fleece etc the air won’t be moving much so you can only add warmth by increasing the thickness of the insulation, which requires more bulk.

You can also get gains with optimal fit which reduces air currents within the insulation, though that’s maybe nit-picking, but that’s about right. Where something like Polartec Alpha scores over fleece is that it seems to manage moisture slightly better. The downside of down-like insulation both natural and synthetic is that it doesn’t really wick at all with air being held between two layers of relatively un-breahable fabric.

Moisture management matters quite a lot because moist air transmits heat more efficiently than dry air, so if your layers are full of humid trapped air, the insulation will actually be less efficient. Stuff like PrimaLoft Active and the BD and Patagonia options I mentioned before improve breathability by not having to use fully windproof fabrics, but the fill itself doesn’t really wick in the same way as Alpha.

If you’re not moving about and generating heat/moisture then that’s less of an issue.

Anyway…

Requirements for moving and waiting are different. So for something like skiing I’d imagine a packed down jacket would be good, like climbers use. Put it on over everythign when on a lift or waiting, stuff and pack it when exercising.

I’m kind of the same as you – I get very hot whilst exercising but whenever I stop I don’t have enough natural insulation to keep me warm.

Without trying to be patronising, snow is different from rain so waterproofing a ski jacket isn’t as essential as E.g. a walking jacket. Have you ever used a jacket designed for skiing? Whilst they tend to be a bit less ‘technical’ in terms of fabrics / breathability stats, I’ve never found them wanting for their intended purpose. You can usually join them up to trousers, and they will typically have layers of insulation within them. Winner.

I’d say most of the time I just wear a base layer + ski jacket (In my case a Bonfire Arc). When it’s really cold I’ll either put a thin fleece underneath or my Montane Prism jacket as a mid layer. I’ve never had a real problem. Decent gloves and socks also essential.

I woudl go for more fleece – but ditch the gore-tex and replace with a light windshell.

I wouldn’t – with a fleece on my goretex jacket is much more resistent to the chill factor outside than my paclite or active shell jackets are.

I would get one of those fleecy thing that goes round your neck, I’ve found that sealing off the top of your jacket and keeping your neck warm is important when cold. And possibily one of the gore face masks for when on the lift in the freezing wind, or occasionally on the piste if it is cold.

I’d suggest thickening up your base layer. Have a look for things made from Polartec Powerstretch (Pro). Very similar (and slightly cheaper) is Reed Transpire Fleece (the design is more function than fashion) but ridiculously warm and breathable. Add as many normal fleeces as you need on top before your goretex.

The trick to staying warm in queues and lifts is to close all your vents and zips and put your hood up as soon as you stop skiing not once you start feeling cool. Do you use a neck gaiter / scarf to stop warm air escaping through your neck? – I’ve found turtle fur to be the warmest.

Does your jacket have a snowskirt that you can fasten or a way of attaching it to your trousers. Helps reduce the chimney effect.

Have a look for things made from Polartec Powerstretch (Pro).

the H/H Warm stuff always seems to be well regarded on here – especially on threads mentioning how Merino isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.

I wouldn’t – with a fleece on my goretex jacket is much more resistent to the chill factor outside than my paclite or active shell jackets are.

But a light shell is more likely to be more comfortable under the extra layer you put on top when you are not exercising.

Thanks for all the replies.

I use a Goretex shell because its what I already have, and as I only ski once a year (this is my 3rd week, total), I don’t want kit that sits unused the rest of the year. Shell is good, as yes, I have skiied in the rain, and I’m still at the learning/pushing/making mistakes stage, so I occasionally end up upside down in a snow drift.

The guys I go with are pretty hardcore “getting as much in as possible” skiiers. They’re lifelong skiiers and as such are much faster than me, but I compensate by being much fitter and not needing any recovery time, but it ends up being constant “finish run, straight on the lift, off the lift, straight back down”, which is exactly how I like it. Faffing with changing layers constantly would piss us all off.

The circulation thing is a bit weird – its almost better described as a faulty thermostat. Basically if I get cold (and it can be a very minor trigger, like putting on another layer that’s cold, daftly enough), I’ll be shivering and stay that way for ages, then all of a sudden, I’ll be dripping in sweat. Hands suffer in the more usual way though. Not quite Reynauds, but not far off at times.

I do wear a Buff to seal my neck up and have good gloves, although I’ve avoided mittens as I can’t stand the lack of dexterity.

The circulation thing is a bit weird – its almost better described as a faulty thermostat.

Are you mrs_oab? 😯

I’ve avoided mittens as I can’t stand the lack of dexterity

I’d urge you to try them. You don’t need much dexterity for skiing assuming you’ve got an automatic lift pass etc and all you’re doing is holding onto ski poles. You can drop a chemical handwarmer in them much more easily. Cheaper than a new jacket as well.

Also make sure your cuffs don’t have any air / snow gaps.

Off skiing in Val D’Isere in a couple of weeks time, and it’s looking chuffin’ chilly there.

We were skiing there at NY in -18C, I wore a thermal with a heavy weight Marmot down ski jacket over it and was nice and toasty.

Are you mrs_oab?

Mrs ff is the same, blows hot and cold completely randomly…..

When you say mid layer do you mean as in a jumper type thing? Not next to your skin or on the outside.
If so, fibre pile is warmer than fleece albeit not so wind proof but that’s what you jacket is for. Or just use some nice wool jumpers. if you don’t need the wind proofing its as good as fleece.
I sweat like a sweaty thing with the slightest exertion yet freeze the second I stop. I find that a decent wicking vest such as HH Lifa Wear with something absorbent like wool keeps me dry which keeps me warmer. The pile on the layers, pile or modern synthetic quilted stuff then a windproof.

Another vote here for polartec alpha, been kicking the arse out of a lowe alpine frozen sun jacket for the last few months, scores highly for me on very cold days but when still quite active, although hasn’t the outright warmth at stand still as a similar weight down/ or primaloft gold jacket

Fleece is pretty warm and effective, as long as it’s layered beneath a windproof layer.

I have a Rab Strata vest, it would work quite well for this purpose

I’ve got tonnes of outdoor kit and whilst it changed the game for waterproof shells, I’m not convinced by all the plastic thermal clothing. Isn’t it all just trying to emulate wool?

Isn’t it all just trying to emulate wool?

Not really.

Wool doesn’t work as a base layer except for merino wool which has a different structure to other wools and (I think) has to be weaved in a certain way.

You can use wool as a mid layer for insulation but for the same warmth fleece will be lighter, less bulky, holds less water and dries quicker.

When it’s really cold I’ve always gone for:

Thermals > Long sleeve base layer > Fleece with a Windstopper lining > Jacket.

So two top windproof layers and an extra base layer.