I too have had definite physical effects from acupuncture. Real pain relief. Unfortunately it didn't last long enough for it to be useful- would have needed daily needling.

One of the things that often amuses me is the "its herbal so it has no side effects" arguement I so often hear. So there are no poisonous herbs and no conventional medicines derived from herbs then? No didn't think so.

Of course this is all anecdote but in response to:

hear from people who've received complementary therapy and found it lacking or mis-sold rather

Read my initial long post on the first page. A patient of mine with terminal disease was sold a "cure" based on carrot juice. Morally bankrupt charlatan making a living off people in dire situations. I guess he gives all the good CAM therapists a bad name.
And I also had a patient who had a stroke caused by chiropractic- the practitioner managed to sever one of his vertebral arteries.

It's not all good and it's not all bad, but it could be either.

As TJ said an open mind is what is needed.

One of my favourite sayings is "If you open your mind too much your brain will fall out" Seems quite apt here.

It would be perhaps more interesting to hear from people who've received complementary therapy and found it lacking

Okay then, I tried accupuncture once. It didn't work.

TJ, I hope that the closed minded comment didn't include me. I'm perfectly willing to change my mind on these things all that I ask is that the effects of "Alternative Medicine" be proven. Granted that means that it is no longer really Alternative but that's another matter.

I'd be more interested in hearing what would persuade a believer in such things to change their mind. In my experience it is the believers who are close minded, not the skeptics.

Gonefishing – not aimed at anyone in particular – there appeared to me to be some very closed minds on the thread and I can't be bothered to re read it to check if you were one.

Not intended to be offensive either

Read the OP and cba reading the rest.
One phrase springs to mind…"Pie in the sky".

Why on earth would you want to target students?

Oh, sorry, just re-read…"well to do students"!

8)

Sorry TJ that was a bit harsher than I intented. It's something that annoys me when I get accused of having a closed mind by people who refuse to accept a challenge to their "beliefs"

Nae worries. I didn't take it harshly

As pointed out above, if an alternative therapy is deemed to be effective then it ceases to be alternative and becomes therapy.

If some of these alternative therapies that have been used for "thousands of years" are truly beneficial, then surely there would be evidence of their efficacy over and above a placebo?

-This is not closed-mindedness.

Scientific knowledge increases incrementally and understanding increases with time, it does not decrease. A healer 2000 years ago may have observed some positive effects of some of their herbal potions. Further observation and refinement has resulted in the medical practice of today. This practice will change when more is learned/understood.

due to stagnation of energy so just give it a bit of a shove.

hehehe this thread gets more entertaining by the hour. 🙂 I dont know whether to laugh or cry!

coffeeking having sorted a nasty illness i thought i might share with folks some of the stuff that seemed to work for me.
this was an ill guy with a very skeptical mindset.
turns out that a few of you are just nasty f*ckers though.*

*not crikey though as he said sorry.

turns out that a few of you are just nasty f*ckers though.*

*not crikey though as he said sorry.
😀 Far from it. Whether there's an underlying real mechanism helping (which I doubt, but won't rule out if efficacy can be proven over a placebo, and "it worked for me" isn't evidence), "stagnant energy" is a phrase that makes my sides hurt! As mentioned above, anything that is *proven* to help is considered a therapy/real treatment – the tag "alternative" is added when it has no proof of working and removed when it's proved to work.

An "Energy" master in action…

its a system that millions of people use every day to moove stagnant energy.
ever heard of tai chi?
ever give it ago?
do you need someone else to tell you its ok before you do? its really not that scarey yknow.
folks like you are all the same,pointing laughing knowing nothing.
best of luck with that mindset.

Nok – anecdote is not evidence.

coffeking – some alternative therapies are now used in the NHS – NICE even recommends back manipulation now IIRC. acupuncture is used fairly widely as well. These remain alternative therapies.

why do i need evidence though TJ?
surely giving up something that never lets me down because there is no paper to say its proven is stupidity.

If it works for you fine.

However there are alternative explanations for the improvement in your condition.

Your illness goes thru periods of remission. There might be trigger factors you are now avoiding. It could be placebo effect.

There is no proven causal link – therefore it is simply wrong to say that your alternative treatment cured you when the 3 things above are also possible explanations and probably more likely

i take the point chap.

These remain alternative therapies.

I think the preferred phrase is "complimentary therapy".
A GP friend of mine is a medical acupuncturist- 'twas her that needled my shoulder and instantly got rid of the pain. She uses a sound knowledge of anatomy and physiology to treat mostly musculoskeletal symptoms. The ancient chinese model of acupuncture is based on different theories- energy lines in the body, releasing the chi (or is it chai -no that's indian tea) etc. She tells me there are some bits of the chinese system that she uses, but when you look at them it's because it correlates with the anatomy.
What she doesn't do is stop people from smoking or help them lose weight with it. That just doesn't really work, or if it does its through the same methods as the other "therapies", nice bit of relaxation makes you feel all zen and helps you do it yourself.
You could of course argue that because of her western medical training she is incapable of fully taking on board the ancient chinese traditional model and that is a valid viewpoint.

nonk – its the description of "stagnant energy" that I'm struggling with. Tai Chi is effectively just low impact stretching and exercise, of course it's going to help with many things, but that's like saying breathing helps with living 🙄 .

With regard to "ever heard of it, ever give it a go" – yes, no, never needed to, I've always found a perfectly acceptable and scientifically provable solution to my problems so far, sometimes including stretching and exercised that I dont do in day to day life. I don't find it scary in any way thanks, and I dont need to align my chakras or push "sluggish energy" around.

TJ – Indeed, and I've no problems with them if they're found to be an effective REAL solution. It's when it's nothing more than a placebo being sold to people that I dislike it. What I have problems with is people suggesting some mystic energy content that gets bored or trapped. Soon we'll have the wound fairies sorting our healing. 😀

I'm a scientist by trade, so highly sceptical of many of the claims of Holistic medicine, but my stance has softened somewhat. Not because I believe any of it, but I think that some of the techniques may very well be a valid means of encouraging the body to self-heal – the placebo effect, if you will.

The problem for me is that a lot of the practices are cloaked in exactly the kind of fluffy, woolly, ethereal language that makes it a laughing stock in scientific circles.

If you can divorce the ability to have an internal dialogue with yourself from the crystals and lavender and fans-of-light-and-energy, then I think that there could be real benefit in a number of the techniques that underpin the holistic business.

2p.

i had it explained to me abit like this doc.
acupunture is grand for symptom relief as you get the pain from the excess so you chuck a pin in and you get relief.champion.
shiatsu or self shiatsu requires that you apply yourself to working out the route that the excess has taken and then manipulating it back to a better state of balance.allso good but way more graft.

There is no such thing as "ancient chinese model of accupunture". Accupuncture was unified by Mao. It's interesting to note that life expectancy in China used to be low, then something miraculous happened and it increased to the roughly the same as the west. It happened when they adopted the western model of medicine.

TJ just because something is approved by NICE it does not mean that it is effective. Show me the trails that prove efficacy, and also provide an explanation for all the negative trial, and I'll change my mind. All I ask is that the same standard of proof that all other medical treatments go through.

Some food for thought here.

http://whatstheharm.net/

its the mystic fluffyness attitude that frys my head allso coffeking because all that toss stops people seeing what is to alot of people clearly a good thing.most folks that practise shiatsu or accupunture try to distance themselfs from the hippys.

Coffeking – there are lots of illnesses that have no scientific explanation for why they happen. What happens can often be explained but why is much harder.

NICE does not recommend stuff without evidence. Thats its role

+1 on accupuncture having real and lasting effects. But it is pricey, and there's no point going to a couple of sessions, feeling a little better and then never going back. You really do have to stay the course.

I've mentioned my cure on here before, but, in a nutshell;

Woke up one day with severe radial nerve palsy (totally dead right arm). Went through the usual channels including months of physio, lost my job and my life seeped slowly away. Doctors told me the nerve damage was irreparable and I should get used to having one arm.

Eight months in and my relative (mentioned on page two) phoned me and told me to come down to Edinburgh for treatment. Did so – loads of accupuncture, heavy duty deep tissue Chinese massage and vile potions to drink twice a day.

Within a week of this, feeling and strength crept back into my arm. Within two weeks, I could pick stuff up and almost have a w@nk. One month later – total cure, almost up to full strength.

Not coincidence in my mind. If I'd been paying for it, it would have cost me thousands, but in retrospect, would happily have paid….

NICE does not recommend stuff without evidence. Thats its role

Then where is the evidence.

Nice are subject to political pressure just like every other public body. It would be nice (sorry) if such bodies were totally independent band considered only the facts but you only have to look at the drugs advisory council to see how politics interferes. As well as politics there is also the media. I seem to remember a case where NICE didn't approve a breast cancer drug as it was seen as having limited benefits and they were then vilified in the press for denying "life saving treatment". I don't know if they capitulated or not but it is easy to see how they would.

http://www.nice.org.uk/CG88

Gonefishin- not sure what point your trying to make but my immediate thought in response to your assertion about life expectancy in china is that maybe with western medicine came western diets and habits.
That's why you need scientific trials, to exclude other likely factors that have caused the effect.
Oh and sorry about the phrase ancient chinese whatever. Just know medical acupuncturists aint the same as chinese acupuncturists
happy now?

I read that one earlier TJ but it's a treatment recommendation not evidence of efficacy (unless I was reading the wrong bit). Also given that it is for a non specific pain that would seem to me to the ideal sort of condition that would respond to a placebo. It's also interesting that they also suggest other treatments like exercise and I'm willing to bet that for a lot of people weight loss would be beneficial also.

bloody hell check that out.nice one doc.

My point about acupuncture was that if it is so great then why was the life expectancy so bad when it was the only thing being used as treatment.

That's why you need scientific trials, to exclude other likely factors that have caused the effect.

Which is all I've ever asked for. All the trials that I've read have shown that acupuncture is no more effective than a placebo.

The other question that I'd like answered is if it's so good why didn't it work on me?

This two conversations at once thing is making my head spin though. Just as well I'm not in work today or I'd be getting even less than normal done.

Personal experience:

I had severe back pain. Went to a "Kinetic Chiropractor" whose method consisted mainly of waving his hands about, tapping the top of my skull and pulling one leg until both feet were level.

The half-hour or so of relief I put down to the leg-pull and 45 minutes spent lying on my back on the examination table…

After several visits, nothing improved, so I went to (gasp!) my doctor. She reccommended a local physiotherapist.

The physiotherapist manipulated my spine to put the vertebrae into line (my spine was twisted in three different directions at once) and gave me a series of excercises to do at home to ensure the treatments stayed effective.

It took about 18 months for the condition to dissappear.

Holistic, schmolistic…

gonfishin

It states somewhere in there that it is "evidence based practice"

Now there are experienced professionals and specialists and if they tell me " the evidence states this" then I tend to believe them. Thats what we pay them for.

Why didn't it work for you – multiple explanations from scepticism to poor practitioner. You are hung by your own petard there – that is not evidence either – just anecdote.

oh sorry gonefishin I misread your post thought you was saying life expectancy was better before western medicine
And as for nice- well they are principally interested in cost effectiveness are they not. Stuff can be proven effective and not endorsed by nice (ie expensive cancer drugs) but if not effective won't get endorsed by nice.
You have to realise also that the proof of effectiveness is basically is it better than placebo, so nice think acupuncture for low back pain is better than a placebo. Hard to prove with acupuncture- you can't easily do a placebo controlled trial cos people can tell if they have a needle sticking out of them. I believe they have used "sham acupuncture" as a comparison. ie sticking needles in randomly.
That is not saying that it will work for all people in all cases.
Example anti obesity drugs/stop smoking drugs endorsed by nice cos they are better than placebo. Does they work for every person every time? Not in the slightest.

That was kind of my point TJ, I know my experience isn't evidence. The point I was trying to make is that those who say look it worked for X so it must work are guilty of cherry picking data as they don't address the reason as to why it didn't work for Y.

For an effective treatment my scepticism shouldn't make any difference. Antibiotics kill bacteria whether I believe they do or not.

doc.
i have allways wondered if its less likely that any real studies would be done because of the relative lack of money to be made from accupunture,shiatsu etc.
what say you?

Sham acupuncture trial details.

Acupuncture Does Not Work for Back Pain

Acupuncture and Back Pain – Part II

It's explained very well in these two articles but the summary is that the acupuncture was indicative of a placebo response as it didn't matter where the needles were placed or if the needles even penetrated the skin the effect was the same

nonk that is getting close to the "special pleading" logical fallacy.

i have allways wondered if its less likely that any real studies would be done because of the relative lack of money to be made from accupunture,shiatsu etc.
what say you?

In an NHS that is cost driven, if we can find a cheaper alternative to expensive drugs, repeat visits, appointments, consultant time that works well enough, we'd jump on it straight away. Plus, doctors, strange though it may seem, actually want to help people get better, so if they find a treatment that can be shown to work they'll be all over it pretty quick.

Maybe there is a lack of money to be made, but there is also a lack of money to be spent….

ah righto.
my question was based on ignorance of who would do such studies.

There is, would you belive, a prof of complimentary medicine at peninsular medical school, exeter
he is medically trained as well
As far as I am aware, he publishes trials that show when there is a lack of benefit of complimentary medicine, as well as positive ones. As you can see from the links, they are busy bods, researching all sorts of potential uses for comp. therapy.
There may be other similarly renowned academics around the world.
I take your point though. Pfizer aren't interested.
Though the french love all that homeopathy stuff. To my shame I paid a french pharmacist several euros for homeopathic nonsense when my daughter broke her thumb skiing last year. Oh how we laughed in the chalet (5 GPs, 2 pharmacists and a paramedic) (prescribed a by a french doctor, luckily it wasn't a suppository for a change)