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VW Golf R…………estate!
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moshimonsterFree Member
@ richmtb
I’ve been doing this “fast” driving thing now for just coming up to 30 years and your perfect little overtake scenario sounds just like the thing I would probably do in that situation in a fast car. In a slow car I would just chill out, which is still the safer option. But how often does that situation actually present itself?
You have also made something like 7 or 8 presumptions about people you don’t know during that series of overtakes. Only needs 1 of them to be wrong.
moshimonsterFree MemberIt’s all about risk and exposure. If you try something a bit risky enough times eventually you will run out of luck.
molgripsFree MemberOf course not all queues of car are well behaved but you can generally discern the nutters after following for a minute or two
Oh yeah? Bet your life on that? Bet someone else’s life?
Just hypothetically now – what if you aren’t as good at predicting people as you think?
mikey3Free Member“Overtaking is like jumping, the taking off is only one bit of it, you also need to plan where to land”,genius.
FunkyDuncFree MemberYou might think you can do it safely, because you’re special. Well, physics and psychology are both against you I’m afraid.
So do you drive every where at 5 mph to stop the physics causing you issues? Or are you just an awesome driver who sticks to the speed limit?
molgripsFree MemberI generally stick to the speed limit, because it’s a good enough compromise, and that makes me predictable for everyone else.
But this isn’t a willy waving competition. Just be as safe as is practical whlist getting around. Bear in mind that spending 5 mins behind a granny isn’t the end of the world.
mikertroidFree MemberHmm, it has many of the attributes next year’s purchase will possess.
300hp. Tick.
Estate. Tick.
4wd. Tick.
Petrol. Tick.
4 cyl. I’m afraid we need to adjourn to make our decision.
wobbliscottFree MemberIts a fallacy that sports/performance cars brake better. In a standing brake test from any given speed to zero a performance car will not outbrake a ‘normal’ car in terms of braking distance. Where performance car brakes are better is when you subject them to repeated heavy braking, as you would on a track, as they have much better heat dissipation capability and therefore will last longer before brake fade becomes an issue. Brake fade is not an issue on any modern car under normal driving conditions as you only brake hard once in a while and the brakes have a lot of time to cool down between heavy braking events. So misguided opinions like this just reinforce the false sense of security that performance cars give their drivers in normal driving situations, which may lead them to drive beyond their abilities and think everything is fine until something unexpected happens and all of a sudden they’re carrying an extra 30mph or so into a sticky situation.
I agree that just because you drive a performance car doesn’t necessarily mean you’re at any more risk – actually most people I know with expensive performance cars actually drive them very slowly and carefully because they are very conscious about the huge amount of £’s they put into the fuel tank every month, the ridiculous cost of tyres, brakes and other running costs and the huge excess they’ve had to accept on their insurance to get their premiums down to an affordable level. Its a classic paradox. The vast majority of the people owning these cars either cannot afford, are not able, or don’t have the opportunity to exploit anywhere near the performance potential of the car and are relegated to the odd straight line blast of acceleration or overtake manoeuvre to get their kicks. I like performance cars as much as the next man, but even I can’t square this circle.
MetasequoiaFull MemberI hope I’m never riding my bike (remember those) on the road while some of you are trying to overtake 5 cars on the same stretch.
rebel12Free MemberI hope I’m never riding my bike (remember those) on the road while some of you are trying to overtake 5 cars on the same stretch.
For what reason? We have eyes!
It’s all about risk and exposure. If you try something a bit risky enough times eventually you will run out of luck.
Sorry but it’s got nothing to do with ‘risk’ or ‘luck’. If you genuinely believe this then you can’t be a very perceptive or proactive driver?
A well planned overtake should keep the risks to an absolute minimum and should not require any degree of ‘luck’ to perform in perfect safety. Okay you could argue that you don’t have to overtake do you, but this is the real world we live in, not some driving utopia where everyone is happy to drive to the lowest common denominator.
Fast cars are not just about driving quickly. Any decent fast car even when traveling slowly will have better steering feel, better balance and better responsiveness. It will also feel more special and lets face it, not everyone in life is satisfied with mediocrity, driving the same jelly mould car as every other person or being sensible all the time. Why would you settle for eating basic porridge all your life when you can add some honey and fruit to make it taste so much better?
moshimonsterFree MemberSorry but it’s got nothing to do with ‘risk’ or ‘luck’. If you genuinely believe this then you can’t be a very perceptive or proactive driver?
okay whatever, I must be a shit driver then. Can live with that.
rebel12Free Memberokay whatever, I must be a shit driver then. Can live with that.
Fair enough, I couldn’t.
moshimonsterFree Member@wobbliscott – I don’t know where to start with all that nonsense you have written, so as it’s Friday I’ll let someone else have a go.
moshimonsterFree MemberFair enough, I couldn’t.
Let us know if you beat your PB overtaking effort at the weekend.
Inbred456Free MemberWhat’s even more frightening is when you are a passenger in a seriously fast left hand drive car being driven in this country on the left. The bit that is going to hit first if your driver gets it wrong is your side!!!!!
Luckily I was in a Lancia Delta Integrale at the time and God that was quick.
Still did the 5 pence 50 pence dance though!
molgripsFree MemberI hope I’m never riding my bike (remember those) on the road while some of you are trying to overtake 5 cars on the same stretch.
For what reason? We have eyes!Hay wagon obscures view of bike, wagon pulls out a bit to pass cyclist as you are closing at 90mph – kaboom.
It’s not hard for me to imagine these scenarios – you should too.
molgripsFree MemberWhy would you settle for eating basic porridge all your life when you can add some honey and fruit to make it taste so much better?
Lol.. it’s only a car, it’s not your life.
jimjamFree Memberwobbliscott – Member
Its a fallacy that sports/performance cars brake better. In a standing brake test from any given speed to zero a performance car will not outbrake a ‘normal’ car in terms of braking distance.
No, it’s a fact. The 60-0 stopping distance for most average cars is about 140ft. Something like a Porsche Boxster or a WRX STI is about 112ft. A Nissan GTR 99ft. Some serious exotica can do it in around 90ft. 60ft shorter than most cars. That to me is out braking.
rebel12Free MemberNo, it’s a fact. The 60-0 stopping distance for most average cars is about 140ft. Something like a Porsche Boxster or a WRX STI is about 112ft. A Nissan GTR 99ft. Some serious exotica can do it in around 90ft.
Quite, and the difference is even more pronounced in real world scenarios, e.g. say braking from 80mph to 40mph.
EdukatorFree MemberSame road, same conditions those cars you quote can’t beat boring cars by anything like that. The amazing figures often come from American tests performed on high-grip racing circuits.
EdukatorFree MemberHere’s the top eight in a 200 car comparative by Autoplus in France. 130kmh to 0kmh:
1er Mercedes CLS 350 avec 62 metres de distance de freinage
2e Mitsubishi Lancer evo 9 avec 62 metres
3e Opel Astra GTC OPC avec 62 m
4e Peugeot 207 1.6 HDi 110cv Fap avec 62 m
5e Porshe Cayman 3.4 S avec 62 m
6e Bmw 120i avec 62 m
7e Bmw X5 4.4i avec 62 m
8e Chrysler Crossfire SRT avec 62 mSee that Peugeot 207 in fourth place. Most normal cars are pretty good, it’s only when you get down to cars equipped with off-road tyres that stopping distances increase significantly.
Edit to add an amusing one: Corvette C6 72m
EdukatorFree MemberSome more from another Autoplus 200 car braking test from 2007 this time:
Porsche 997 = 59m
– Audi R8 = 61m
– Alfa 147 = 61m
– Clio 3 RS = 62m
– Megane RS = 63m
– Grand Picasso = 63m
– BMW X5 = 63m
– Fiat 500 = 64mSee that grand Picasso.
Edit for that STW favourite: – Subaru Impreza = 68m
rebel12Free MemberSame road, same conditions those cars you quote can’t beat boring cars by anything like that. The amazing figures often come from American tests performed on high-grip racing circuits.
Okay a very quick google of some 70-0mph distances for you:
Nissan GTR (532hp), 70-0 in a distance of 40.9m
Lotus Elise (190hp), 70-0 in a distance of 41.8m
BMW 135M (320hp), 70-0 in a distance of 45.9m
Toyota Gt86 (197hp), 70-0 in a distance of 48.8m
Renault Megane 2009 (138hp), 70-0 in a distance of 53.7m
Fiat Panda (60hp), 70-0 in a distance of 56.1mAll Autocar or Auto Express data performed in the UK on a dry surface. This is a single stop only from cold. If there was any residual heat in the brakes from previous use (as per normal road driving) then it’s likely that the results would show a greater variation with the braking distances of the higher performing cars remaining fairly stable, but the lower performing cars braking distances increasing as their braking systems are more prone to fade with as they can’t dissipate heat as effectively.
The basic fact though even with the single stop test is that in the Nissan GTR performing an emergency stop you’d be stationary from 70mph in 40.9m. At a distance of 40.9m in the Megane you’d still be traveling at 35mph and the Panda would still be travelling at 40mph!
Alarming, and food for thought.
EdukatorFree Memberdata performed in the UK on a dry surface
Yup, a grippy track for the performance cars but not the Panda. The European organisations use the same surface for all the tests. Differences are then very small. A German test of tyres from Bild:
rebel12Free MemberYup, a grippy track for the performance cars but not the Panda.
Nice try but nope I’m afraid not, these are Autocar and Auto Express tests performed in the UK and these two magazines are known to be pretty consistent in their testing standards. Still, you go ahead and believe what you like 🙄
That Grande Picasso you quote does have a good stopping distance from 70-0 (due to it’s amazing lightweight construction when compared against its peers). The heavier VW and Renault people carriers of similar spec both have 70-0 stopping distances of 56m plus. There’s always the odd low performance vehicle you can find that has an amazing set of brakes and no doubt you’ve used this to skew the trend to win your argument. Vast majority of time though the higher performance the vehicle, the better it’s brakes.
If you Google hard enough perhaps there’s an obscure Albanian vehicle braking test you can dig up somewhere to prove your point?
legendFree MemberYup, a grippy track for the performance cars but not the Panda.
When did a 138hp Megane become a performance car?
EdukatorFree MemberMy own subjective experience confirms the Autoplus results: An AMG Merc (for example) stops in much the same manner and distance as a boring hatch in the dry. In the wet a good set of tyres on anything helps but if the tyres were the same I’d expect to stop sooner in the boring hatch.
rebel12Free MemberMy own subjective experience confirms the Autoplus results
Haha, it gets better – there’s nothing SUBJECTIVE about vehicle stopping distances. Sounds like you must have performed far more emergency stops than me in your driving career and in far more types of vehicles? In nearly 20 years since passing my test and probably 500,000 miles driven I’ve yet to perform a true emergency stop on UK roads where I’ve needed to use 100% braking. Guess I’m just leaving too much space between me and the car infront? Knew I was doing something wrong!
richmtbFull MemberYou have also made something like 7 or 8 presumptions about people you don’t know during that series of overtakes. Only needs 1 of them to be wrong.
You make presumptions all the time when you are driving. If you didn’t you would still need a man with a flag in front of you.
No disagree?
When you are doing 70 on the motorway you are presuming you won’t have a blow out. When you overtake on the motorway you presume the car you are passing won’t drift into your lane. When you drive towards oncoming traffic on a single carriageway you presume that the won’t swerve and hit you head on. When you drive through a light controlled junction you presume no one is running a red light.
Driving is a continual series of presumptions and assessments overtaking is no different.
EdukatorFree MemberSounds like you must have performed far more emergency stops than me in your driving career
Quite possible, several hundred per weekend when competing, obviously not on the public road. Not many in recent years. “Subjective” just means that I didn’t get out and measure the black lines each time I braked.
rebel12Free MemberQuite possible, several hundred per weekend when competing, obviously not on the public road. Not many in recent years. “Subjective” just means that I didn’t get out and measure the black lines each time I braked.
Just when I thought it couldn’t get better it does! Competing? Black lines? Surely you know that the most effective way to brake with maximum force (whether competing or not) isn’t to induce a skid?
Sorry I’ll stop now, as don’t think you or I can take any more 😆
EdukatorFree MemberBrake hard on sticky tyres and slip angles mean you’ll leave black lines while the wheels are still turning. The car is drifting to some extent most of the time once up to speed when either racing or rallying. About the only time it isn’t is when accelerating in a straight line.
wrightysonFree MemberWow this thread got long! Has molgrips been going on about overtaking? Anybody fancy doing a quick synopsis save me reading the last 6 pages?
mikertroidFree MemberWrightyson,
I think it started about a Golf Estate and has degenerated into a standard STW bun-fight.
Very interesting braking data and lots of pious statements confirm my suspicion that the fun police are out on patrol.
The good news is that if people get brainwashed by the PC low carbon emission and slow-is-safe brigade, prices of petrol fun-wagons tumble and I get a bargain. Winner!!
suburbanreubenFree MemberHere’s the top eight in a 200 car comparative by Autoplus in France. 130kmh to 0kmh:
1er Mercedes CLS 350 avec 62 metres de distance de freinage
2e Mitsubishi Lancer evo 9 avec 62 metres
3e Opel Astra GTC OPC avec 62 m
4e Peugeot 207 1.6 HDi 110cv Fap avec 62 m
5e Porshe Cayman 3.4 S avec 62 m
6e Bmw 120i avec 62 m
7e Bmw X5 4.4i avec 62 m
8e Chrysler Crossfire SRT avec 62 mSee that Peugeot 207 in fourth place. Most normal cars are pretty good, it’s only when you get down to cars equipped with off-road tyres that stopping distances increase significantly.
Edit to add an amusing one: Corvette C6 72m
Post a link fella. It’s easy to spout shite without backing it up with “evidence”.
It would be interesting to see what cars are included and what aren’t.
Where’s the Mondeo?rexatedFree MemberI reckon that Golf looks really good. And, should I buy one, I will have to admit that when overtaking 5 cars straight, I would be driving one handed, the other hand being used to manipulate my willy in a waving motion at those I passed.
I like the idea of fast 4 wheel drive estates that do more than 25mpg.
” 😉 ”
simons_nicolai-ukFree MemberOvertaking is like jumping, the taking off is only one bit of it, you also need to plan where to land
I’m another one who gets shit scared when I read threads like this and glad I don’t spend much time on country A roads. My experience of multi car overtakes is **** completely failing to judge distance and having to force their way into the middle of a line of cars causing all of them to brake. That’s a line of cars travelling at or very close to the limit – not following a tractor.
Statistically 50% of drivers must have “below average” driving ability but I can count on one hand the number of people who consider themselves poor drivers. Everyone considers themselves “good”. So half the people on the road are overestimating their skill.
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