reading that SOLO/ Scout thread and others and wondering whether at the 5k mark its a process of diminishing returns ? There seem to be downsides to some of the efficiencies in the 1 x whatever setups and other areas where performance/stiffness is questioned.

Are these 5k plus carbon MTB’s twice as ‘good’ as a 2k alloy XT grouped Giant/Spesh/Trek or is there a big premium around the branding ?

People who buy £5k bikes aren’t interested in value for money, I’m guessing. Perhaps there’s a permium around branding, perhaps there’s a real or perceived performance boost, perhaps it’s just the love of owning and riding a beautiful thing.

Yes there are “diminishing returns”.

Don’t know that Santa Cruz are really a niche brand but they do have an excellent reputation for customer service, e.g. how many manufacturers offer a lifetime bearing warranty?

Are these 5k plus carbon MTB’s twice as ‘good’ as a 2k alloy XT grouped Giant/Spesh/Trek or is there a big premium around the branding ?

What is ‘value’? What is ‘twice as good’? There’s no answer, if for example, someone’s definition of value includes the cachet of riding a bike from a particular brand, then it it might be that buying an Ibis or a SC or whatever represents ‘value’ to them. If your definition of value is purely financially based, then maybe not.

You know that anyway as you’ve put ‘good’ in inverted commas to emphasise that it’s not an objective measure. So clearly the answer is maybe or maybe not 🙂

It’s also worth noting that you can buy the lower specced alloy version of the carbon bikes for less.

Part of what you pay for with a smaller brand is the extra costs of not being one of the big 3 or 4.

I own 2 carbon frames now, I’m not going back to alloy any time soon so there is a difference in weight and stiffness there which I’m willing to pay for. The cost of that weight reduction in components would be higher.

I’ve only ever bought one off the peg bike too so the list price hasn’t really meant anything to me, the lower specced bike would generally just look like a bill of changes to me. My built bike has just had a 1x conversion, new cassette as it was a cheapo Shimano one and I’ll probably swap the bar and seat post at some point soon.

The off the peg SC/transition bikes in some areas cover more of the things I want on a bike.

I’ve ridden a lot of bikes, of all different styles and I prefer my SC to a lot of the others, twice as much? not sure but enough to make it worth what I paid.

^^^ fair point on the warranties. I was lusting after a SOLO but couldn’t justify the cost vs the Giant Anthem SX that I have coming for a try. I have no doubt that the Santa Cruz would be ‘better’, but I cant really work out how twice as good. I don’t think my riding is good enough to justify it !

EDIT – any yes, I can see how it is subjective. I’d love a Santa Cruz really, but the wife would boot me out !

I think once you get past 2.5/3k you are very much into the realm of diminishing returns, esp with ze Germans direct selling model. But, that said, if you add up all those little gains, it adds up to make a noticeable difference. Plus some people like to think they have the absolute best available, regardless of cost.

IMO (not that I own a particularly niche brand) but I’d have thought it’s about riding something where everything works together very very well: all the components, the frame, the geo work perfectly together.

I bought a Rohloff hub several years ago and just think it’s the best thing since sliced bread…IWFM. It might not for others but it does for me. I’m happy to apply the same logic to every bit of a bike cause at the end of the day when I’m miles into the woods and everything works perfectly then I’m a happy bunny IMO

I’d also have though that admiring something that’s taken years of honed skill to perfect is what some people get from owning these brands. I saw a Nicoli frame the other day and the welding was just lovely to look at…did it ride well….I’ve no idea but if I owned something like that I’d be stopping ever 10mins to sit down and look at it again!

If I was to calculate how much time I spend thinking about the ‘perfect’ set up / bike v the amount of time I spend riding, it’s heavily weighted on the former. That’s all part of the fun for me.

Another thing I’ve noticed over the years is that when it’s easier financially to buy something the less enjoyment I get out of it…and the more expensive something is to buy the more upset I get when I break it!