Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 245 total)
  • VAG Diesel Owners – what now?
  • P-Jay
    Free Member

    Sorry I know there’s already a big thread on this, but this is pretty OT.

    I suspected as much, but VW have now admitted that all their diesels are a bit fibby when it comes to Nitrogen emissions, they only use a few variations of engine across all their brands so I assumed they’d be equally effected. Which includes my Seat.

    There will no doubt be calls for them to do something about it, one suggestion is that VAG may decide to spin this as a ‘fault’ and call in all their cars for a recall to ‘fix’ it.

    One of the reasons I liked my car when I test drove it was the fact that it doesn’t have the sort of ‘flat spots’ that other diesels have – Hyundai for example – you drive, the engine speed reaches the point that the tests are taken and – as if by magic the engine turns down the wick – this is ‘legal’ because well it’s how the engine works and the fact that it’s surprisingly clean at the point where they test it is pure luck (and the fact they’re also surprisingly efficient at the road speed they test also is equally ‘lucky’)

    So, environmentally conscious STW – if you have a VAG diesel, and they call it in to be ‘fixed’ would you do it? Bearing in mind that the ‘fix’ might make it more lumpy to drive if they follow the route the other makers have gone down, slower over-all if they decide to be whiter than white given the size of the scandal or both but knowing it will produce less Nitrogen – or would you leave it as it is?

    wwaswas
    Full Member

    What if the govt decides to change taxation class of your car if you don;t have it done?

    P-Jay
    Free Member

    wwaswas – Member

    What if the govt decides to change taxation class of your car if you don;t have it done?

    It’s certainly a consideration – I don’t think it would happen, taxation in the EU at least is based on Co2 emissions, the cars have to pass tests for Nitrogen, but it doesn’t effect taxation, as I understand it, it’s a pass/fail thing.

    It might effect people driving into London though!

    Freester
    Full Member

    Depends what are they going to fix.

    I don’t think they’ve admitted the actual defeat kicks in during EU tests. Just the defeat is present in the software.

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    It would start getting expensive for VW if their cars starte getting re-banded, or failing MOTs.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    I’d assume they’d just re-certify them all, so you thought you had a Euro VI car but you only have a Euro V car.

    But remember – this software is there to recognise when it’s doing the US test, and change its behaviour. It may not even be triggered by the EU one.

    brooess
    Free Member

    I doubt there’ll be much of a second hand market for unfixed VAG diesels so you’re probably stuck with it if you don’t get it fixed
    + if you don’t get it fixed then you know you’re causing massive environmental damage…

    Depending on age, any chance of getting them to take it back under consumer rights of some kind, get your money back (or most of it) and buy something else?

    P-Jay
    Free Member

    Interesting point about the US test v the EU test, as I understand it the EU is more focused on Co2 – hence why Diesels are so popular in Europe.

    In the US and Asia they’re more focused on Nitrogen and other gasses, so they tend to follow the hybrid route, and it’s why the US can still produce huge engines that pass emissions tests that small diesels can’t.

    I guess VAG were pretty desperate to get their diesel technology into the US, I’d bet they really pushed the environmental side too – diesel to the Yanks is truck fuel. Although there a movement at the moment to put huge Cummings diesels into hotrod trucks and things that put out huge power and massive plumes of soot.

    wwaswas
    Full Member

    Bozena Michalowska-Howell, part of the consumer law and product safety group at Leigh Day, wrote in the letter: “While we welcome the news that repairs will be undertaken to upgrade the affected cars to comply with EU nitrogen dioxide emission standards, such repairs may result in reduced fuel efficiency and increased CO2 emissions which in turn may impact upon the vehicle excise duty payable and other associated costs.

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/sep/30/vw-emissions-scandal-12m-uk-cars-affected

    Can the rest of us who’ve had to breathe all this extra crap make a claim?

    ahwiles
    Free Member

    brooess – Member

    I doubt there’ll be much of a second hand market for unfixed VAG diesels so you’re probably stuck with it if you don’t get it fixed

    or…

    people will discover that ‘fixed’ VAG diesels drive like turd, so the 2nd hand market will favour ‘un-fixed’ examples.

    maybe.

    footflaps
    Full Member

    Can the rest of us who’ve had to breathe all this extra crap make a claim?

    Given the Government has been dragging it’s feet for years over air pollution in the UK, I can’t think much will happen. They even lobbied the EU to reduce the standards for the emission tests (along with France and Germany), so suddenly pouring scorn on VW is very two faced!

    Will be interesting to see what the owner class action law suits achieve…

    pjt201
    Free Member

    wwaswas – Member

    Can the rest of us who’ve had to breathe all this extra crap make a claim?

    I don’t think that would be successful in the UK (you could only claim for consequential loss, so if you had emphysema and could categorically prove it was caused by NoX then go for it). But I can see a class action lawsuit springing up in the states, not sure how successful it would be though.

    freeagent
    Free Member

    To put a different spin on it –
    I’m a company car driver, and I have a ’14 plate Passat 2.0 Bluemotion diesel.
    I chose this car based partly on the tax liability, which is calculated in part by the vehicles emissions level.

    I’m going to be livid if it gets re-banded and my tax goes up.

    footflaps
    Full Member

    I’m going to be livid if it gets re-banded and my tax goes up.

    That would be a pretty clear cut case for compensation from VW…

    molgrips
    Free Member

    I guess VAG were pretty desperate to get their diesel technology into the US, I’d bet they really pushed the environmental side too – diesel to the Yanks is truck fuel

    No, most Americans don’t give a crap about the environment. The reason they had to do this for the US was that the NOx emissions targets are extremely strict, and the reason for THAT is that they have terrible smog issues what with their continental weather and huge traffic problems.

    One reason trucks are so popular is that they are classed as work vehicles and exempt from most of the standards IIRC. Also exempt from some taxes, I think.

    somouk
    Free Member

    I’m going to be livid if it gets re-banded and my tax goes up.

    I’m in a similar boat but at the moment it’s only CO2 based. Fingers crossed the fixes they make don’t alter the CO2 ratings also.

    If they do I would consider sending the car back to the lease company under change of contract or something similar.

    grim168
    Free Member

    I’ve had my passat fixed (re-mapped) 😀

    wwaswas
    Full Member

    I’ve had my passat fixed (re-mapped)

    Wonder what happens if the VAG fix is mandatory? You have to have it mapped back to the ‘wrong’ map before they remap it to their new one and then you revert to your original remap.

    andyl
    Free Member

    One reason trucks are so popular is that they are classed as work vehicles and exempt from most of the standards IIRC. Also exempt from some taxes, I think.

    I think he’s talking about big trucks hauling cargo not pick-up trucks. A lot of pick-ups will be petrol.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    It’s a conundrum isn’t it. Probably the sensible thing to do is wait and see- the response is bound to vary region to region depending on what the real world impact is. I gather it might turn out to be irrelevant to EU testing.

    brooess – Member

    + if you don’t get it fixed then you know you’re causing massive environmental damage…

    Probably more the case that you’re causing the same environmental damage as an equivalent car from a couple of years earlier. If driving a cheaty VW is a cardinal sin then driving my euro 3 mondeo is too. And if a software fix comes down that affects drivability, then remapping it will probably still be possible and again, no more of a sin than remapping any other car.

    It’ll be interesting to see the actual real world impact of the cheat though.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    I think he’s talking about big trucks hauling cargo not pick-up trucks. A lot of pick-ups will be petrol.

    Yes, but most people would like a diesel one. They are much more expensive to buy though so you don’t see that many.

    torsoinalake
    Free Member

    Not a lot is going to happen.

    VW will do a recall. Slap on the wrists. Life continues as normal.

    DaveyBoyWonder
    Free Member

    I’m going to demand they replace it with the 3.6 V6 out of a Passat R36 if my T5 has to go back.

    footflaps
    Full Member

    Not a lot is going to happen.

    Maybe in Europe.

    I suspect the US will fine them a huge amount (as per BP).

    P-Jay
    Free Member

    brooess – Member

    + if you don’t get it fixed then you know you’re causing massive environmental damage…

    It’s not that I don’t care about it, it’s just I don’t trust the tests.

    Emissions tests are frankly bullshit – it’s not their fault, there’s millions and millions of Pounds/Dollars/Euros at stake, if a manufacturer can produce a car that’s taxed at a lower rate than their competitor they’ll sell more, so they’ll be all over the whoever tests such things to be ‘fair’ and very many expensive law suits will follow if they think there’s even a tiny discrepancy in testing.

    So they test during laboratory conditions – and the conditions are published and known – so they all cheat to a certain extent, for most manufacturers it means their engines ‘turn down’ at the rpm / load that the tests are taken so whilst they might produce a certain amount of gases in the tests, there’s no guarantee they do in 99% of normal driving conditions and consumers can’t really tell which car will produce the most pollutants during their normal drive or even which will use the most fuel, because they fudge that test too.

    Where VW went wrong is that they designed their fudge to only work under very strict test conditions not just at certain rpms and loads.

    Doesn’t really mean they’re any better or worse than BMW / Ford / Citroen etc.

    Perhaps they need better tests.

    As for my original question, I just don’t know – I certainly won’t be first in line to have it done, I’ll wait until news reaches the internet of what they’re like afterwards, I don’t want a lumpy, sooty less-efficient car that produces less Nitrogen.

    tthew
    Full Member

    As quite a few people have pointed out already, the EU tests focus on CO2 emissions, which is primarily a petrol engine pollutant. I have a VAG group petrol eco-engine, (if there is such a thing). I’m thinking that in a few weeks there’s going to be more revelations about a petrol defeat device to reduce CO2. Which will probably make the diesel NOx issue pail into insignificance.

    Scienceofficer
    Free Member

    NOx is produced by the higher combustion temperatures of diesel engines. Generally, to reduce the temperature they throttle the actual combustion in the cylinder by reducing o2, often by recirculating exhaust gases with their particulates, CO and altered co2 and o2 balance.

    If you sqaush the power from the burn to reduce emissions, you can only reduce the power you get from the fuel.

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    Where VW went wrong is that they designed their fudge to only work under very strict test conditions not just at certain rpms and loads.

    Doesn’t really mean they’re any better or worse than BMW / Ford / Citroen etc.

    Having bought a 120d in the midst of this crisis, with its £30 VED I find i am in the last two days achieving 59mpg on a 90 mile round trip, 20 miles of which are through London, 30 Miles A/B roads and the rest a free flowing M25.

    I looked into how I’m achieving this fantastic mileage amongst the evidence so far published concerned about a future recall and, brearing in mind the response above, disvcovered that ECO PRO mode – which i actually havent used much – in the Beemer does exactly this:

    If you sqaush the power from the burn to reduce emissions, you can only reduce the power you get from the fuel.

    … mutes the combustions and throttle input and also the on screen shift display has me using such low revs I’m barely toucing the 1250rpm-3750rpm torque band, 40mph in 6th in some cases also with start/stop. Hence, I’d guess my car would have been tested in precisely this way, with the cleanest possible fuel to get through the system.

    I’m also guessing the using its 184bhp/340nm in Sport mode would never pass those tests.

    v8ninety
    Full Member

    I doubt very much that the ‘fix’ is going to do anything other than remove the cheat code and make it more ‘honest’ in tests anyway. I doubt that it will do anything to real world emissions; I suspect that the emissions targets are unacheivable anyway for that given engine/performance/fuel, hence the cheat codes very existence. I won’t be giving them my Golf GTD just to make it ‘honest’. It’s a lose lose for me; it either doesn’t make any real world difference, in which case it was inconvenient and pointless, or it makes the car emit less stuff, which will have to impact on an aspect of drivability or fuel consumption. It’s due to go back to the lease company next year, they can do it then if they like.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    if a manufacturer can produce a car that’s taxed at a lower rate than their competitor they’ll sell more

    I don’t think there’s a sliding tax on emissions in the US – I think it’s a case of approved or not.

    Kryton’s point about eco mode is interesting. I noticed whilst my colleague was browsing for new company cars that the Skoda Superb has a driving mode button as an optional extra. I wonder what that does? If it does indeed change the engine map for better economy and lower emissions, then surely you need to test the car with it *not* in eco mode otherwise it’s just another fudge?

    v8ninety
    Full Member

    Golf GTD has an eco and a sport mode, too. Goes like shit off a shovel in sport mode, but it does sup the devil juice at a remarkable rate… Hence Eco ‘most’ of the time for me.

    FunkyDunc
    Free Member

    The Eco mode on BM’s is about reducing fuel consumption by reducing throttle response, limiting the air con etc. That saves fuel, but I guess it does reduce emissions.

    The only way to save emissions is not to drive a car.

    Back to the OP. I would be mighty pissed off if my car was recalled, gets remapped and doesn’t perform as well ie same acceleration, mpg etc.

    Surely at that point you have been miss sold the product and entitled to money back or compensation ?

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    Seeing as I’m being paid the mileage I’ll drive all the way in Sport mode tomorrow to see the difference. I’m not expecting there to be much as my journey conditions – during rush hour – will be the same, i won’t get the chance to give it the beans.

    But molgrips – its a fudge in plain sight or a switch out of ewco pro by choice, and assuming the test cars are the same there are visual indicators everywhere once it goes into eco pro, so the testers would have been aware.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Yes, but do they test it in eco mode or not? It ought to be in non eco mode, because they must be aware that people will want to simply leave it off.

    speed12
    Free Member

    Ladies & Gents,

    Just wanted to clear a few things up regarding this situation as there is a lot of mis-information floating around (in the media/piblic in general, not necessarily on STW).

    Briefly, my credentials are that I am a calibration engineer in the auto industry – my direct coutnerpart at VW would have been the one implementing (and now fixing) the defeat device in the ECU strategy.

    Interesting point about the US test v the EU test, as I understand it the EU is more focused on Co2 – hence why Diesels are so popular in Europe.

    As quite a few people have pointed out already, the EU tests focus on CO2 emissions, which is primarily a petrol engine pollutant

    CO2 is NOT legislated in the European emissions test (or the US one). CO2 is legislated by an overall fleet average, but it is not a requirement for a singular vehicle to hit a CO2 target. The EMS will be calibrated to hit a CO2 target, but this can be anything the manufacturer desires – however this would be the value that determines the tax band in the UK. Perhaps a subtle, but an important distinction.

    I’m thinking that in a few weeks there’s going to be more revelations about a petrol defeat device to reduce CO2

    Very doubtful. In the simplest terms a gasoline emissions test is pretty easy to pass. As long as you get a good amount of heat down the exhaust and light the cat off quickly then jobs a good-un. HOW you get the cat lit off quickly is the tricky bit without hitting CO limits, but as it’s such a tiny portion of the test there wouldn’t really be any point in having a defeat device as it has absolutely no bearing on real-world driving (by the time you’ve set off, the cat will have lit off).

    Various quotes about CO2 increasing

    Sadly, the easiest way to get the NOx levels down will almost certainly increase CO2. The simplest method is just to crack the EGR valve open slightly further. This will bring NOx down quite quickly, but the way the EGR is calibrated is on a NOx/CO2 (and PM) curve so if one goes one way, the other one must go the other way. As to how much this will be I’m not sure without knowing the engine/EMS. However the chances are if they go this way then it probably will.

    Various quotes on the EU test cycle

    One thing that most people are correct on is that the EU test cycle is crap. The industry thinks it is crap as well. When the WLTC test comes in, it is a much more realistic drive cycle (similar to the US FTP cycle) which will help, but there is also a real world driving element – this is actually on road rather than a ‘representative’ cycle and with portable emissions equipment. This will be a great help in getting cars to actual emit low emissions in every day driving.

    Those are some of the main bits I wanted to clear up, feel free to fire any questions this way (might not know all of them, I am mainly a gasoline cal engineer, but will try!).

    wwaswas
    Full Member

    Someone else coming in here speaking from knowledge and first hand experience.

    That’s pages of wild speculation and bickering we’ve lost now 😉

    speed12
    Free Member

    Yes, but do they test it in eco mode or not? It ought to be in non eco mode, because they must be aware that people will want to simply leave it off.

    Knew I’d missed one….

    The test must be run in the ‘Normal’ driving mode. This is the mode that the car will be in when it leaves the factory. If you have to press a button to get in to ECO mode then the test will NOT have been performed in that mode. The condition of the car must be exactly as it would be if you picked up a car straight from the factory, pressed no buttons and then started it and drove away. This is why you have to turn Stop/Start OFF rather than ON for example.

    What is bad in the test is that it doesn’t legislate for emissions with AC on, ‘Sport’ modes etc – the US test does have an AC on component, but currently the EU test doesn’t. I believe that will come in with the new regs.

    Where things like ECO mode do help is that the manufacturer can claim credits towards their overall fleet CO2 target if they implement ‘CO2 reducing features’ in their vehicles. Where this gets stupid is that you can claim these credits even if a driver may never use it.

    Ifrider
    Free Member

    I work for a large Diesel engine manufacturer. To reduce NOx emissions there’s a knock on effect with fuel economy. Our low-e files are far worse economy wise. It’s a misconception by most people that you must be burning less fuel to give out less “nasties” in the exhaust. It’s the opposite as you’re not “burning” the fuel properly so most of the energy from the fuel is wasted. So you’re happy in your nice VW, Seat etc with loads of torque etc and good mpg, now a remap will eff it right up for you (possibly)… I’d be well p’d off.

    wwaswas
    Full Member

    So is my 530d going to be visiting a bmw dealer in the near future for emasculation?

    speed12
    Free Member

    I’d personally say this won’t spread far out of VW. Any manufacturer I have worked with has certainly not had a ‘defeat device’ and the same is being said by my colleagues (who are diesel based so more qualified to answer that).

    To be honest I’m very surprised it got to the point of being implemented. A HUGE number of engineers would have had to know about this. There would have had to have been 2 entire calibrations developed if the defeat code worked as expected and switched in a different set of running maps when it detected it was in an emissions test. Plus Bosch would have had to provide the software to even allow it to do this in the first place – now Bosch’s defence will be that it was provided for development purposes and to be fair to them it is not their call to implement it in production, but they would have known about it.

    BMW does use it’s own EMS though….so not sure about them…..but would still be surprised if they have used a similar method of cheating tests.

Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 245 total)

The topic ‘VAG Diesel Owners – what now?’ is closed to new replies.