I can’t believe that STW isn’t getting all hot and bothered about this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/may/09/universities-extra-places-richest-students

I was using some very choice words in the car this morning when this story came on the news!

Time for revolution, comrades!

Anybody got a spare guillotine knocking about?

Daily mash on the case!

Idiot spawn !

do you have an opinion on foreign students paying to attend UK universities?

I was equally apoplectic when i heard it!

Its a logical progression I’m afraid. Its fairly obvious that education as a right rather than a privilege is over.

Soon it’ll be back to the ‘rightful order’ where Gideon, Dave, Boris and their Bullingdon chums go to Oxbridge ready to take their place ruling over the uneducated Serfs

Pass the petrol bombs please

Stoner: yes.

I’m very annoyed that my daughter will count as a foreigner and can’t get her fees paid if she goes to a Scottish university 👿

Soon it’ll be back to the ‘rightful order’ where Gideon, Dave, Boris and their Bullingdon chums go to Oxbridge ready to take their place ruling over the uneducated Serfs

Sorry, I must have missed a step. When was it ever any different ?

I’m very annoyed that my daughter will count as a foreigner and can’t get her fees paid if she goes to a Scottish university

dont understand ❓

do you have an opinion on foreign students paying to attend UK universities?

We supported a UK university over the last year for 2 groups to do their final year project so 8 students in all. 2 of these were UK based whilst the rest were foreign. The tutor was telling us that changes in UK visa’s were likely to kill a lot of foreign student coming over (non-EU) as they would no longer have a 2 year VISA to stay and work after they have completed their cause and therefore lose the benefit of studying in the UK in any case.

Having a multi-cultural and diverse education at University should help people integrate better within jobs as well in my opinion but seemed to have the opposite effect in this case as one group had a serious religious divide meaning one student didn’t even turn up towards the end of the year.

When was it ever any different ?

Well… I got a university education* and it didn’t cost me tens of thousands of pounds. And I’m a proper working class prole

*I know, I know – what a waste

Stoner:

I was messing with your head, man.

You see I was changing the perspective, in that I’m annoyed that my English daughter would have to pay tuition fees if she were to attend a University in Scotland, as she is ‘non-Scottish’ and so effectively ‘foreign’ for that intent and purpose.

HTH 😉

Unlucky. Probably blown her chance of marrying a prince 😉

Anyway, university “profitability” goes someway to fund access funding and hardship funds. Its also a function explicit in the new university fee structure for which the highest fees can only be charged after access funding commitments have been approvied.

I see no issue with fleecing both rich johnny-foreigners and rich british parents to improve both access and the education quality of the rest of the students.

I see no issue with fleecing both rich johnny-foreigners and rich british parents to improve both access and the education quality of the rest of the students

Me neither, I’d do it – in the case of rich Brits – via a much higher income tax bracket,

then they all chip in 🙂

Well… I got a university education* and it didn’t cost me tens of thousands of pounds. And I’m a proper working class prole

Yeah well that’s part of the problem right there. They throw us a few bones and it looks like the problems are solved. So a few working people got to be educated, still didn’t alter the fact that we have been, are and probably always will be, ruled by an effete, public school educated elite.

So whats wrong with paying for training, get a company to sponsor you , then if youre a workshy idiot, you soon get found out instead of holding people back who really want to learn, and enjoy their training.

Its also a good way of culling toptally pointless night class quality courses.

ef·fete? ?/??fit/ Show Spelled
[ih-feet] Show IPA

–adjective
1. lacking in wholesome vigor; degenerate; decadent: an effete, overrefined society.
2. exhausted of vigor or energy; worn out: an effete political force.
3. unable to produce; sterile.

Whatever he may be, he’s not effete… 😉

I see no issue with fleecing both rich johnny-foreigners and rich british parents to improve both access and the education quality of the rest of the students.

That’s all well and good, but given that universities must be operating at full capacity based on the number of students (who are expected to get the necessary grades) who get turned away, surely this will put a squeeze on the number of less well off kids getting offered a place? This ‘extra income’ from the rich will not result in bigger lecture theatres and major recruitment drives for more lecturers in the near future.

Something similar was suggested for Scotland a wee while back.

A fair point Stoner. I feel sure that Oxford and Cambridge will soon be using their enhanced funds to trawl the council estates of the country offering scholarships to promising tracksuit-bedecked urchins.

Its all in line with both theirs, and the Tory party’s, relentless pursuit of a true meritocracy. God bless ’em all

*doffs cap*

That’s all well and good, but given that universities must be operating at full capacity based on the number of students (who are expected to get the necessary grades) who get turned away

No. They are running at full capacity for the level of funding they get.

And you are grouping all courses at all universities in that statement. Oversubscribed courses could be widened with the additional income. An undersubscribed one is hardly likely to attract private “investment” in someone’s education is it? What would be the attraction?

Hate to pierce your sarcasm binners, but the ability of oxbridge to provide access funding is diretly linked to their income from grants, fees and investment income. There’s a number of access funds and hardship funds at both college and university level at cambridge which are used to attract those that have ability but not the financial conviction to commit to the costs of university.

http://www.cam.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/finance/support.html

table text doesnt paste well, but look at second half of table.

So this is flogging places, that would have gone to foreign students, to UK students, if they want to pay for the same as the foreign students would have had to pay.

Because they can’t take places away from foreign students and let UK students have them via student loans to cover fees (which are too high, but that’s another issue) because they can’t make the numbers work.

Can’t see the problem myself, that’s why I’m not getting hot and bothered about it.

For a lot of courses (exact quantity unknown, but certainly applies to healthcare) the government forecast however many physios, nurses and whatever will be needed in 3 or 4 years and fund that many places. If they open up additional self supported places then there are going to be a lot more students finishing their courses and not able to get a job for love nor money. I’m also pretty sure that those people who are able to pay their own way through uni without government support are going to benefit from nepotism more than those who can.

University education can only be a right when it’s for an elite.

As soon as 50% of the population go to university it can’t be free. And to make things worse you need a degree for every conceivable job!

I’m sure there will be a revolution. The best and the brightest will skip university and the best and the brightest companies will pick up on this and recruit straight from school. Leaving the gormless to do degrees.

How about rich kids pay the fee but then they have to have a coin flip with a kid that can’t afford to go, the winner gets the place?

I think 50% is arbitrary.

Personally I think it should be closer to 20% of school leavers, with reinstatement of maintenance grants, no fees, but a premium tax rate of, say +2-5% at the higher tax band for earnings over the rest of their life in the UK.

Not sure how to deal with emmigration though.

Anyway, thats another thread.

Headfirst – presumably if Scotland goes for independence she’ll then be able to attend a Scottish university to avoid the fees?

I see no issue with fleecing both rich johnny-foreigners and rich british parents to improve both access and the education quality of the rest of the students.

In essence, I don’t have a problem with those who can afford it paying their way.

But, these things never exist in isolation – protecting funding for those who can’t afford it won’t happen or will, as we’ve seen, be eroded; applying strict entry requirements based on academic attainment won’t happen, because those who can afford it will have been given better opportunity to achieve higher A Level grades than others.

I thought Justin Webb did a pretty poor job this morning.

How about rich kids pay the fee but then they have to have a coin flip with a kid that can’t afford to go, the winner gets the place?

the truly wealthy would keep tossing the coin… meaning at its extension, once again the wealthiest are in a position to always “win”. So you dont really solve the moral question.

yes lets fleece them by making them pay higher taxes so that every citizen can have the same opportunities as their children are afforded.

Stoner – I’d think the figures quoted on the site would still fail to make a dent in the full cost of an Oxbridge education. You’d still have to have some serious financial clout behind you

I’m sorry but it just reaks of tokenism

And if a lot of thick but wealthy Tabbathas and Hugos fill up Britain’s decent universities, the academic staff will continue to loathe them as much as they already do.

Which is only right and proper.

yes lets fleece them by making them pay higher taxes so that every citizen can have the same opportunities as their children are afforded.

rubbish idea. Since no tax is hypothecated, all that extra income would be wasted on public sector employee wages rather than directed at university access 😉

binners – you’re kidding?

there’s over £15k available there!

yeah, and when the thick Rupert come out of Oxbridge, daddy will just buy him an internship at some top financial house

The whole **** system is rotten to the core

Anyone who votes Tory, lives North of the home counties and/or isn’t super rich needs to stop reading the Daily Mail and think if the people they are electing really have even the slightest interest in the well being of them or their families, over and above being worker drones.

Britain has the biggest gap between rich and poor in Europe.
The gap is still increasing and nothing is really being done to stop it, because it is seen as desirable by both Conservatives and sadly by Labour, to their shame.

Selling the places at the best universities to the rich is just another part of that.

People have fought so many many decades, indeed longer for social progress and fairness… and now we have this stuff being resurected.
I despair.

We had to decide if educating our population was a business like any other or something more profoundly important, of intrinsic importance to our society and future. Well, we decided all right. And I think we are about to decide in the same direction regarding the health service. Trouble is, I am not sure now how to vote to express displeasure in this trend given that all the main parties are centre right. Or does this mean I am simply wrong and/or naive and that we should let Lord Sugar run the UK PLC?

When I heard this on the news this morning any final lingering hopes that this current Tory administration actually represented ordinary right of centre people were blown completely away. Couple that with Lib Dem mass suicide attempt it rally only leaves us with Labour and we all know where that left us (with a Tory government 👿 ).

I dont quite see why all the faux anger.

Universities are not state owned. Why can’t they sell a service privately?
It doesn’t reduce the funding capacity from the state, nor does it restrict the number of state funded places, in fact the opposite, it widens access funds.

Sounds more like the ugly politics of envy really. Cut a nose to spite a face?

sorry – i completely fail to see anything unfair about this.

hang on, i’m still thinking…

a uni can offer more spaces if there’s enough money to cover the costs, but the money available through the state-funding + fees isn’t enough to cover these costs.

so if you want one of the extra spaces, it’s gonna cost you.

hmm, there’s something whiffy about it, but i can’t quite put my finger on it.

more thinking required…