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  • Ultramarathon training?
  • irelanst
    Free Member

    I’ve been entered for a 100km ultra in July (Race to the stones) and am looking for any advice on training. I’m currently in marathon training (for London) but due to injuries over the winter I’m behind schedule so won’t be trying to PB so am thinking of using it as steady(ish) training run so I don’t lose the week after.

    Once London’s out of the way it leaves 12 weeks for getting up to distance.
    At the moment I’m doing;

    Mon: Rest + cycle to work 40km round trip
    Tue: 12-14km (Club run)
    Wed: 6-8km (Steady) + cycle to work 40km round trip
    Thur: 16km (With threshold intervals)
    Fri: 6-8km (Steady) + cycle to work 40km round trip
    Sat: 15km (with Parkrun in middle run at threshold rather than flat out)
    Sun: 30-35km

    I’m limited to a certain degree in terms of time available without risking withdrawal of privileges / divorce. I can double up on Thursday by running to and from work which would be 16km each way, could probably squeeze another 5km in on Saturday before the Parkrun and will aim to add 5km a week to the Sunday run up to 55-60km (or 5hrs whichever comes first) but the other days are pretty much maxed out as it is.

    Does that seem reasonable?

    Pigface
    Free Member

    From the guy who I know who does Tripple Iron Mans it’s mental strength. His opinion is that the human body can only be so fit and then the brain takes over.

    alanf
    Free Member

    If it were me (which it isn’t) I’d be looking at factoring in some more rest – i.e. actually resting and not cycling to work on your days off.

    The wife has done an ultra earlier this year and she is doing the Wall in June. She just does long slow runs – she says it’s more about time on feet than specific sessions. She does club runs and gym sessions twice each per week and then a long run/race at the weekend. She seems to be doing well with it. She knocked out a trail Marathon in the dales last weekend on the back of no specific training – she’s just built back up slowly from the Ultra she did in Feb so wasn’t focusing on that one.

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    eddiebaby
    Free Member

    “I’m not the strongest. I’m not the fastest. But I’m really good at suffering.” – Amelia Boone

    surfer
    Free Member

    body can only be so fit and then the brain takes over.

    Mental strength is extremely important but “the will to win is nothing without the will to prepare” The guys at the sharp end of any race will be those who have trained extremely hard. Focus on physical strength first.
    Hard to guage how good your training is without knowing your Marathon PB? is it 2:20 or 4:20?
    Are you looking to be competitive or just get around? If the latter your training is fine, its only 64ish miles. You can simply do that as a one off on what you are doing if you just want to finish. Most people can knock that off if they are happy just jogging and walking then picking up a medal and T shirt

    Pigface
    Free Member

    Don’t get me wrong Surfer, this guy is stupid fit and prepares like a machine. I assumed that OP was in that bracket.

    The-Swedish-Chef
    Free Member

    That’s a tough looking schedule. What’s your marathon PB/plan?

    I’d say that you’d do better by dropping the threshold element of the Wednesday run after the marathon and concentrating on simply getting really solid consistent training weeks in.

    Start hiking with the family at weekend to get more time on your feet but without the injury risk

    100KM will be mental toughness rather than physical form that sees you through it.

    Keep us updated! 8)

    curto80
    Free Member

    If that is your typical weekly schedule you are asking for trouble.

    One day week of rest at a minimum.

    40km of cycling is not rest!

    Not sure what having two 6-8km steady runs achieves. I’d drop the Friday one and find another way to get to work that day.

    Otherwise looks pretty solid to me

    jimdubleyou
    Full Member

    My step brother ran the Arc Of Attrition earlier in the year.

    If his strava is anything to go by, in the month before he was doing 5-15k every other day and a long (40-60km) run at the weekend. Some of that was recce for the race though.

    surfer
    Free Member

    you are asking for trouble.

    Without knowing the OPs fitness thats not possible to know. Cycling for a good athlete is “active rest” for a runner it depends on intensity. I used to run every day and ride at weekends and that was fine. Runners tend mainly to suffer from impact related injuries intensive cycling can be tiring but it shouldnt add to injury risk (unless you fall off!)

    curto80
    Free Member

    Disagree Surfer.

    did you then do a 100km running race?

    For something like that you have to give your body time to recover. The OP has some intense sessions in there. Rest rather active recovery. Minimally drop one of the junk mile runs.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    One Saturday a year or so ago we left the house to do our family stuff in the morning, I noticed one of the many joggers out was wearing a camelbak. Odd, I thought. Came back home three or four hours later, saw him again, still out. Popped out to the shop another couple of hours later, he was still out, looking very knackered indeed but still shuffing along.

    He’d run the whole day apparently in loops round our neighbourhood.

    marcus
    Free Member

    For ultras I would generally recommend basing training for time on your feet not distance. As others have said, bit more rest and longer runs required. The ‘fun’ only usually begins after 5 or 6 hrs.

    surfer
    Free Member

    For something like that you have to give your body time to recover.

    Hence the question about current fitness. Recovery is a relative concept. For a good standard runner a sub 60 minute 10 could be a recovery run. For some that could be faster than their PB. Without knowing it is all guess work.
    You cant say if that schedule is hard or easy without having more information.

    did you then do a 100km running race?

    No but I could have done! My training wasnt specific so I wouldnt have expected to win but I have no doubt I could have run the distance, not sure of your point?

    mrwhyte
    Free Member

    When I was training for my ultra I only did a few short runs in the week, but on the Saturday I would head out for about 8 hours with the camelback and snacks. Long and slow, almost a shuffle.

    When doing those distances like 100k, I’d say your weekend run needs to be longer than you are currently doing or at least building up to longer distances, with more rest in the week. Bin some of the shorter runs. If you can run 75% of the overall distance, that last 25% will be mental.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    I hope you own a foam roller 🙂

    The-Swedish-Chef
    Free Member

    That schedule isn’t too dissimilar to the one I used last year for my marathon build up. If the OP has a solid background then I’d say that multiple weeks of that level of TSS are manageable.

    kilo
    Full Member

    Sister in law has done that last two years I’ll see if she can add anything re race to the stones

    durhambiker
    Free Member

    I had a failed attempt at Country to Capital this year, going back next year. Got quite a few friends who do this sort of thing, and the advice I got from them was time on your feet rather than distance covered. If you go out for a run and you’re just not feeling it, stay out but walk instead. Back to back runs so you’re legs are used to running tired, days where you’re doing two runs and so on.

    Yes the mind plays a big part, but it won’t make up for poor physical prep which is where I fell apart after having a tough few months. Was enjoying myself on the day but the legs just didn’t have it in them on that day.

    irelanst
    Free Member

    Thanks for the replies, I’ll try to answer a few of the points made.

    Cutting down the cycling; I’ve done that already, I was riding to work 5 days a week but it was getting tiring during the marathon training. I do take it really steady though and like to think of it as Surfer says as active rest.

    In terms of my level; my marathon PB is 2:50 so I’m not in the running to win the ultra, but will be aiming for a time rather than just get round, I’m thinking sub 10hrs should be possible? I ‘scale’ pretty well, my half PB is 83mins which is quite a bit slower than other 2:50 marathoners that I know and my 10k PB is embarrassing. However I’ve never run further than 50km so no idea how I’ll react after that.

    I foam roll a lot and am doing a lot of glute, core and flexor exercises at the moment to improve muscle balance (physio guided).

    Ro5ey
    Free Member

    I say you’ll easily do 10hrs … IF IF you go slow enough for the first 40km and then slow enough for the second 40km…. by the last 20km you will be slow enough 🙂

    The wonderful thing about ultras is …. rather marathon where you are chasing a time… looking at your watch every 20secs checking your pace … “Am I going fast enough?… Am I going fast enough? … I found if you set yourself a realistic time for an ultra (like I believe you have) you look at your watch every 5/19/15 mins and ask yourself “Am I going TOO fast?” … It’s very liberating.

    Good luck Have fun.

    I’ve signed up for a 24hr run last week… “only” done 8 hours before.

    kilo
    Full Member

    The sister in law writes;

    “He’s pretty quick
    But this might help a bit

    I really enjoyed RTTS last year …

    It’s a very corporate ultra and ” pit stops” every 6 miles so really easy to break down the distance into smaller chunks, a big pit stop at the half way point. Plan your approach to the stops- minimal time spent, I had the luxury of a crew, so only stopped to use the toilet facilities.

    A variety of terrain- both years I’ve taken part it’s been really dry – and I’ve worn road shoes ( did change to a 1/2 size bigger at the half way point ). Having said that the “Ridgway” is really exposed,both the wind and heat can be very strong. The last section before you drop down to the farm and then the Stones, was terribly unforgiving on the feet, very hard rutted tracks which were terribly uneven and impossible to get into any sort of rhythm, especially when your feet are suffering.

    Your training looks good with the adjustments- I found “Relentless Forward Progress” Byron Powell, very helpful.

    My training week consisted of 1 speed session, 1 tempo run, 1 steady run and 2 long runs over the weekend( back to back) For these depending on how I felt would walk any uphill that was hard work.Weekly mileage varied form 35 to 60. I mixed the training on roads and trails. I always wore my race vest/camelback on long runs and adjusted to what I would need to carry for the day, . Recovery days active walking and circuits/ strength trg. Time on feet and mentally adjusting to slower pace but enjoying it ? Really work on your nutrition – find food you like and can actually eat is a problem for most, although all of the pit stops were like a buffet table …Flat coke is nectar.

    I’m a 51 yr old female with a pb marathon time of 3.27- been running marathons since 2014. I had hoped for sub 12 hours and finished in 11.10.”

    Hope this is of use

    Spin
    Free Member

    I’d say your weekend run needs to be longer than you are currently doing or at least building up to longer distances, with more rest in the week. Bin some of the shorter runs. If you can run 75% of the overall distance, that last 25% will be mental.

    I’d agree with most of that. I’d consider building up to two longer weekend runs and ditching the shorter ones. For a 100k I’m not sure it’s necessary to have done 75% of the distance in training. That’s a pretty massive run and might affect recovery too much.

    jimdubleyou
    Full Member

    Really work on your nutrition – find food you like and can actually eat is a problem for most, although all of the pit stops were like a buffet table .

    This was a problem with my step-bro too. First 100 miler he tried, he had to stop with stomach cramps.

    irelanst
    Free Member

    I say you’ll easily do 10hrs

    I’ll try and remember that at 80km!

    I was told before running a marathon that “you have to wait for a marathon to come to you, don’t chase it” which at the time I thought it was hippy nonsense but it makes sense once you’ve run one, you spend the first 20 miles waiting to run, and the last 6 suffering, I guess ultras are the same philosophy taken to the extreme. 24hr race, no thanks!

    Kilo: Many thanks to your sister in law, I appreciate any advice I can get at the moment. I’ve been fretting about shoe choice already and was thinking road shoes would be the best, I’ve run on the Ridgeway quite a bit and unless it’s gopping road shoes have been fine for me so far but it’s nice to hear an experienced opinion.

    I’m working on nutrition and have been using real food on long runs so far and even trying to eat on my thursday 10 miler just to practice. Some of the baked egg recipes out of the feedzone portables book are favourites so far. I know I couldn’t handle gels for 10 hours.

    ianfitz
    Free Member

    Having done a bit of ultra running in the past I’d suggest a bit more periodisation rather than knocking out the same sessions, distances etc each week. Be prepared to give yourself a couple of steady weeks after London (assuming that you do take it steady on the day) then three weeks steadily increasing duration and a step down week. Continued.

    As others have said – got a rest day in there, or at least make sure your cycle commutes are easy paced. A few longer, easy paced runs will do you head some good. I also used to like a 4 hour stead run then a 30 minute effort at the end. Not all out, just enough to know how to push on when feeling a little ragged! Need to be careful with this session though…

    Experienced ultra runners will focus on a surprising amount of quality work and not put in the crazy hours you might expect. But that because they’ve already done that in the early stages of their ultra careers. As others have said the mental aspect of running for a whole day is the key and long, easy paced, days on your feet will generate this. For me I didn’t do much longer than 4-5 hours regularly as the recovery time made this counter productive.

    And if you want some motivation this is 20 minutes well spent – http://tv.thebmc.co.uk/videos/nicky-spinks-bob-graham-round/

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