He’s not goingto make many friends with this story!

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/cycling-ullrich-finally-admits-doping-says-wasnt-cheating-075146588.html

The sad thing is that he is probably right. If everyone else is doing it then you are pretty much obliged to do it to be on a level playing field. The flip-side to that is that if everyone else was doing it, then riders were putting their own health at risk for something that didn’t give them any discernible advantage, and therefore they should have just come to an agreement for everyone to stop doing it at the same time.

I have always wondered whether in a field where everyone is doping, would the really talented riders still rise to the top, or just the ones who responded to the doping the best.

Agreed. I think it just shows how corrupt these people are mentally, just total denial.

If everyone else is doing it then you are pretty much obliged to do it to be on a level playing field

Not everyone was only the cheats were
they may have outnumbered the clean riders but there were clean riders who were robbed by cheats

Almost everyone at the time was taking performance-enhancing substances. I have taken nothing that was not taken by the others.

“It is only cheating for me if I get an advantage which was not the case. I just wanted to ensure I had an equal opportunity….

“The victories still came down to talent, performance, team spirit and will to win

It seems to have affected his ability to make a cogent logical argument

Ooh, now there’s a big surprise. Not.

I’m just curious about how people get treated. I reckon the overwhelming reaction to Ullrich is going to be “yeah, so what, we all knew anyway” and it’ll get forgotten.

Pantani seems to be regarded as a tragic hero.
Millar is seen (by most) as an ambassador for the sport
Simpson is regarded as Britain’s greatest ever cyclist
Riis/Ullrich/Landis all seem largely forgotten about
Hamilton is seen as the loyal lieutenant, doing as he was told/becasue he had to
Armstrong is seen as the worlds greatest villain and arch cheat.

I actually think it’s really rather unfair how everyone has gone clamouring after Armstrong, demanding money be returned, stripping of every stage win ever while ignoring the massive elephant in the room that, oh yes, probably 80% of the field in the entire history of the Tour was doping at one point or another.

Funny think is that Ullrich confessing is like “yeah, so what”; Armstrong confessing, you’d have thought the world had stopped.

But no-one will go demanding Ullrich be stripped of his Tour title. Can’t really see T-Mobile suing him for return of their sponsorship investment.

I still think Ullrich’s argument is actually very Armstrong-esque though. Denial, refusal to accept that he’s morally wrong, inability to see the logical flaws in his argument…

Not everyone was only the cheats were
they may have outnumbered the clean riders but there were clean riders who were robbed by cheats

Well we don’t know that for sure, and I guess we never will. If that was the case, I could see a situation where teams would take a view on which of their riders stood the best chance and focus on doping them, leaving only the lowliest domestique clean. Therefore the best riders would still rise to the top.

If it can be proved that there are whole teams who have never doped a single rider then I’d agree with you, but I’m sceptical.

Edit:

I actually think it’s really rather unfair how everyone has gone clamouring after Armstrong, demanding money be returned, stripping of every stage win ever while ignoring the massive elephant in the room that, oh yes, probably 80% of the field in the entire history of the Tour was doping at one point or another.

My thoughts exactly.

I think it just shows how corrupt these people are mentally, just total denial.

does that not sum up just about every roadie out there?

“honestly, i wear lycra because it makes me faster.” whereas, if truth be told they get off on the idea of wearing gimp clothing in public.

#shouldntbeallowednearschools

does that not sum up just about every roadie out there?

“honestly, i wear lycra because it makes me faster.” whereas, if truth be told they get off on the idea of wearing gimp clothing in public.

#shouldntbeallowednearschools

I see the trolls are up early today.

Well we don’t know that for sure, and I guess we never will

Yes we do, the cases of riders driven out of the peleton are well known by all but those still desperately trying to defend Armstrong.

Simonei, Obree etc.

esdit: And Bassons of course.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophe_Bassons#1998_and_Festina

I think people are being far too harsh on these riders. They are people who have probably been manipulated and lied to, and in some cases bullied, by the real corrupt people in the sport. It is no different to the world of drugs outside of sport – the users are just being manipulated by the corrupt and powerful barons. The riders are just very competitive and have dedicated their lives to their sport and feel let down by the sport in allowing the playing field to become distorted and feel like, in order to give themselves an equal chance that they need to make a very difficult decision.

I think there should be an amnesty on riders to provide an environment that encourages them to come forward so we can all know the truth and move on. I suspect the vast majority of riders over recent decades have all been involved. Those who are currently thought of as being clean just haven’t been found out yet, and there is no benefit to them for coming forward.

Blaming the riders is like blaming a soldier on the battlefield for the war they’re fighting. Its a systemic issue and the guilty parties are those unseen corrupt people in the corridors of power that need rooting out and exposing. Mirrors the way the world works really.

The hatred for LA is driven by his sociopathic behaviour, his bullying (did Ullrich ever send a lone female diner a text saying “run, don’t walk”, or drive riders out of the sport for breaking the omerta?), his far-reaching power and connections inside and outside cycling, his bribing of the governing body, the dubious financial arrangements of Livestrong, paying cronies and fellow blood diamond mine owners to give talks at seminars to ‘inspire’ people to fight cancer but only ever spend $20m of their $500m on actual research..

But then you knew all that, didn’t you?

Yes we do, the cases of riders driven out of the peleton are well known by all but those still desperately trying to defend Armstrong.

Simonei, Obree etc.

esdit: And Bassons of course.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophe_Bassons#1998_and_Festina

Genuine contenders?

The problem with Lance is/ was Lance. His doping is not the reason many dispise him

I see the trolls are up early today.

i’m an hour ahead of the UK….. 🙂

Well we don’t know that for sure, and I guess we never will

We do know for sure that some riders were clean

They are people who have probably been manipulated and lied to, and in some cases bullied, by the real corrupt people in the sport. It is no different to the world of drugs outside of sport – the users are just being manipulated by the corrupt and powerful barons.

WOW someone thinks the Daily Mail view of drugs is real 😯

Yes the cyclists were oppressed into it by bullies forcing them to and every single person who ever took recreational drugs was forced to by a drug overlord FACT

Simonei

Simeoni. He certainly wasn’t clean, the spat there rose cos he’d threatened to testify against Dr Ferrari regarding EPO supply and use. LA bridged across to the break, told them all that if Simeoni stayed there he’d tell the team to chase it down. The rest of the break told Simeoni to please sod off. As he drifted back through the bunch, he was spat on and called names by other riders.

Don’t kid yourself. Armstrong is no saint but the entire peloton were in on it. Their treatment of Simeoni is just as disgusting as Lance’s behaviour.

The entire peloton is a cross between a cartel and a mafia, it’s own unwritten codes of conduct, how and where to give respect, earn respect etc. They can use it for good (Millar controlling the peloton the day after Wouter Weylandt’s death in the Giro) or they can use it for bad (fixing the racing, bullying etc)

Any GC Tour contender who’s doping (so let’s see then – Armstrong, Ullrich, Contador, Landis, Riis, Pantani…) is no different – certainly the main members of the team – the ultra-domestiques – will be in on it, if not the whole team. Anyone within the team who rocks the boat will suddenly find themselves out of a contract, none of the other teams will want him cos he’s seen as a trouble maker so everyone keeps quiet, the omerta remains.

So anyway, why has Ullrich confessed now? Statute of limitations as per LA? In need of a bit of publicity or money?

We do know for sure that some riders were clean

Some riders, sure; genuine GC contenders? I doubt it.

Would be interesting if he came out and exposed all he knew. Riders who confess seem to be confessing their own involvement but aren’t willing to chuck everyone else under the bus.
He does hint at Armstrong being ‘protected by one or the other institutions and the world governing body’

Do the riders in the Peleton know who the clean guys (if there were any) are?
Would be great if the cheats came out and gave a bit of credit to guys who were clean by naming them.

genuine GC contenders? I doubt it.

If they can even make the Peleton of a grand tour where so many are doping, then they could well be genuine contenders in a clean field.

I’m a big fan of Ulrich, always have been. I guess, no I know why, it’s because of his riding style. That big ring urging mentality, damn tried his best up the hills in the big ring and ploughed a furrow in the breaks..
As for the doping, I’m of the opinion, always have been, that they all did it at the time, a few riders apart who “kept the faith”.
Where are the faithful today, nowhere, forgotten, ignored, retired.
Where are those that drugged, in the media, out there, in the frame, paid for their stories.
I’m not surprised by his release, not at all.
But most of all, Ulrich retired, brand large amounts of beer, enjoyed himself and his mates on the town, smiled a lot.
Lots of respect for that attitude I have, lots.

genuine contenders?
Of course, i can think of two, at least, who were 99% probably clean, one languishing at the bottom of the top ten in several grand tours and one recently retired frenchman who would undoubtedly won much more had he chosen a different path.
So, the cream will always rise to the top eh? Bollocks, the argument that if they all take the same drugs the results will be the same? Dos the effects of the drug have exactly the same rexponse to everyone who takes it? Of course not.

We do know for sure that some riders were clean

Some riders, sure; genuine GC contenders? I doubt it.

Carlos Sastre, Cadel Evans, Bradley Wiggins, Chris Froome.
Possibly Tejay van Garderen, AFAIK he’s never been associated with anything although he did ride for Rabobank in 2008.
And as alluded to above, Christophe Bassons was known to be clean (and to have suffered for it, winning very little and finally being driven from the sport)

General consensus seems to be that Greg Lemond was clean as well.

genuine contenders?
Of course, i can think of two, at least, who were 99% probably clean, one languishing at the bottom of the top ten in several grand tours and one recently retired frenchman who would undoubtedly won much more had he chosen a different path.

Wow, all of two eh? 99% PROBABLY clean? Your evidence is overwhelming.

So, the cream will always rise to the top eh? Bollocks, the argument that if they all take the same drugs the results will be the same? Dos the effects of the drug have exactly the same rexponse to everyone who takes it? Of course not.

If you actually bothered to read my earlier posts, you would see I say something similar to you.

Carlos Sastre, Cadel Evans, Bradley Wiggins, Chris Froome.

You could easily argue that those riders are at the top of their game at a time when doping is [hopefully] in a decline. We aren’t talking about this period in cycling.

New report presents data-driven doubts on performances, past and present

Carlos Sastre, Cadel Evans, Bradley Wiggins, Chris Froome.

If I was in charge of drug testing, I would be paying close attention to Froome.

I’m not a big fan of the performance arguement – ‘you’re only allowed to be this good or you must be cheating’
It makes good reading and is definately interesting to compare performances but doesn’t allow for exceptional natural performances.

If I was in charge of drug testing, I would be paying close attention to everyone.

FTFY

Imagine watching them 21 guys racing Alp D’Huez, that would be awesome 🙂

If I was in charge of drug testing, I would be paying close attention to everyone.

FTFY

Then you wouldn’t be very good at catching the cheats, if you want to catch the bad guys at anything, from doping in sport to drink driving, you look for suspicious behaviour.

Then you wouldn’t be very good at catching the cheats, if you want to catch the bad guys at anything, from doping in sport to drink driving, you look for suspicious behaviour.

+1 for targeted testing.
In effect, that’s what happens anyway – in competition tests are for the first three plus usually a couple of randoms. At Grand Tour level, you also test the overall leader plus the mountains & points competition leaders.

Occasionally, as with this case in 2010, it was specifically targeted as a result of rumours. Basically the guy was doping to maintain his 1st Cat licence, just do enough to get a few good results. Really rather tragic at that level given that his winnings were less than he was spending on doping. 🙄

My imaginary testing programme was based on an ideal world where everyone is carefully watched and checked. Suppose if resources are limited more targeted testing is inevitable.
If Froome’s race goes to plan then he’ll definately be closely watched anyway.

, I’m of the opinion, always have been, that they all did it at the time, a few riders apart who “kept the faith”.
Where are the faithful today, nowhere, forgotten, ignored, retired

Well firstly you are wrong to think they all did and I give you Chris Boardman and The Flying Scotsman as two complete forgotten unknowns just from this country:roll:
Who is that Le Mond bloke ..anyone remember him..do you want more?

Wow, all of two eh? 99% PROBABLY clean? Your evidence is overwhelming

.
Perhaps you should read your earlier posts as you advised others the one where you said

Well we don’t know that for sure[ if anyone was clean], and I guess we never will.

May be pertinent here as they seem to have the same margin as you

New report presents data-driven doubts on performances, past and present

That is not the actual link it is just a précis – full report here
http://www.joomag.com/magazine/alternativ-editions-not-normal/0269766001370594539
@148 pages I will be surprised if anyone has read it

The thing is the TdF times are slowing and people can still do massive watts for short periods [ they have also guessed /worked them out so there is margin of error to the figures]– think the human hour record for example. To use power on one climb seems an odd and unconvincing approach though I have not read the article

TBH some folk seem to forget that , for short burst, they[clean riders] can get towards 6 or 7 watts/kg but they cannot do for every day of the tour.
Basically my or anyones peak watts for 30 minutes is greater than it is for 3 hours or 30 days
Tony martin iirc gets about 6-7 in the TT for an hour or so and wiggo and they are doing around 450 watts.
High outputs for short periods are not proof of cheating IMHO or chris Boardman would have to be considered a cheat

, I’m of the opinion, always have been, that they all did it at the time, a few riders apart who “kept the faith”.
Where are the faithful today, nowhere, forgotten, ignored, retired

Well firstly you are wrong to think they all did and I give you Chris Boardman and The Flying Scotsman as two complete forgotten unknowns just from this country:roll:
Who is that Le Mond bloke ..anyone remember him..do you want more?

Wow, all of two eh? 99% PROBABLY clean? Your evidence is overwhelming

.
Perhaps you should read your earlier posts as you advised others the one where you said

Well we don’t know that for sure[ if anyone was clean], and I guess we never will.

May be pertinent here as they seem to have the same margin as you

New report presents data-driven doubts on performances, past and present

That is not the actual link it is just a précis – full report here
http://www.joomag.com/magazine/alternativ-editions-not-normal/0269766001370594539
@148 pages I will be surprised if anyone has read it

The thing is the TdF times are slowing and people can still do massive watts for short periods [ they have also guessed /worked them out so there is margin of error to the figures]– think the human hour record for example. To use power on one climb seems an odd and unconvincing approach though I have not read the article

TBH some folk seem to forget that , for short burst, they[clean riders] can get towards 6 or 7 watts/kg but they cannot do for every day of the tour.
Basically my or anyones peak watts for 30 minutes is greater than it is for 3 hours or 30 days
Tony martin iirc gets about 6-7 in the TT for an hour or so and wiggo and they are doing around 450 watts.
High outputs for short periods are not proof of cheating IMHO or chris Boardman would have to be considered a cheat

I read the Tyler Hamilton book. One of the things he said was that you could probably still win short races clean but it was the multi-day events which were debilitating and in which doping gave them the advantage. Or in that warped world, evened up the odds.

I’m not wrong Junky, I’m an STW’er. 😉

Like the way he’s waited until LA has been outed an now its just another Tour rider admitting to doping…

I think the heat would have been on him a lot more if he had done it pre all the LA stuff.

As others have said, yes LA was a polarising character but I don’t believe he deserves all the hate he has been getting compared to others.

Cheers

Danny B

Lol. Anyone trying to point out double standards is just lebelled as trying to defend lance or a lance fanboy. Pretty lazy stuff.

I’m not wrong Junky, I’m an STW’er. 😉

Problem is none of us are ever wrong 😉

Anyone else watch the video link to the right of this story of the American race where a marshall gets knocked down? Quite an impressive reactionary bunny hop by one of the riders!