Except in now costs £40k because the labour costs

At that price it’s worth investing in robots, and after the initial investment the prices then come right down…..

At that price it’s worth investing in robots, and after the initial investment the prices then come right down…..

Which robots? Those robots that I already mentioned? 😉

Except in now costs £40k because the labour costs to design, manuufacture and distribute have gone through the roof in order to tempt the workers who tend the robots who make the bikes off their arses into the factory

Because your Universal Needs TM vouchers don’t cover “social gatherings”

Social gatherings are free. Cultures that have nothing material at all gather round for a good old sing song.

cheese and pineapple sticks and mini sausages are seen as luxuries

Personally, I see them as food, but they aren’t requirements for a social gathering, anyway.

TBH I think housing should be provided, there should be far more council housing with affordable rents which could be set nationally (so the market would decide we need more in the SE than the Middlesbrough for example). Combine that with a minimum wage (which is also set nationally) that actually works to provide a decent living for families (£10-£12?) which could be afforded by tax breaks for companies paying it (Amazon would still pay zero tax, but it’s profits would stay in the UK economy via the wages).

With those two things, it should be possible to do any job anywhere in the country and not end up in poverty.

Transport I don’t agree with, too open to abuse and impossible to make universal. I couldn’t get a bus/train to where I now work, and making if I wasn’t paying petrol I’d have no incentive to look for something more local (or save the polar bears).

I disagree, access to knowledge should be universal.

A good reason to get rid of the internet!

outofbreath – Member

Personally, I see them as food.

But in the concept of UBI and ensuring everyone has the “Basics required for life” I don’t think lobster thermidor, 29 day aged rib eye, and mini sausages on cocktails sticks are in quite the same boat as say, cottage pie.

Would be a shame if this diverted attention away from the more interesting idea of a universal basic income replacing the current benefits system. But that won’t happen either…

Agree, a universal basic income is a much better idea.

outofbreath – Member

but they aren’t requirements for a social gathering, anyway.

So your social gatherings are a bunch of adults sat out on the street doing…… nothing?

Isn’t that what bored teenagers do?

But in the concept of UBI and ensuring everyone has the “Basics required for life” I don’t think lobster thermidor, 29 day aged rib eye, and mini sausages on cocktails sticks are in quite the same boat as say, cottage pie.

1) I love cottage pie.
2) If I don’t have to go to work, then I can source my own lobsters at zero cost and only a medium bit of effort.

You’re really not putting me off this plan. The more I think about it the more excellent free stuff I can think of to do.

outofbreath – Member

2) If I don’t have to go to work, then I can source my own lobsters at zero cost and only a medium bit of effort.

Go on then, I’d love to hear how you’re going to catch a lobster with absolutely no capital. You know they don’t just chill out in the Thames, right?

I’m not trying to put you off the plan – I love the concept – I just don’t think anyone really has a clue how to make it work and the current ideas look and sound a bit micky mouse.

So your social gatherings are a bunch of adults sat out on the street doing…… nothing?

I’m thinking Ceilidh.

You just don’t need cash to have a great time.

What’s stopping you doing that just now?

outofbreath – Member
So your social gatherings are a bunch of adults sat out on the street doing…… nothing?
I’m thinking Ceilidh.

where you getting the musicians and instruments?

Go on then, I’d love to hear how you’re going to catch a lobster with absolutely no capital.

Sail out. Drop a creel. Sail back the next day. Pick it up.

That was my next move, seosamh77

Why would you not just do that now?

Oh right, because it’s boring AF.

where you getting the musicians and instruments?

We’d do it ourselves. And with 60 extra hours a week to practice, we’d get pretty good.

outofbreath – Member
Go on then, I’d love to hear how you’re going to catch a lobster with absolutely no capital.
Sail out. Drop a creel. Sail back the next day. Pick it up.

you going to build you own boat too? make you own creel?

outofbreath – Member

Sail out. Drop a creel. Sail back the next day. Pick it up.

You own a boat already? How do you pay for the mooring on someones land? Petrol? Or do you sail?

If you sail, how do you afford the safety equipment required for sailing? How do you afford to maintain your boat?

outofbreath – Member
where you getting the musicians and instruments?
We’d do it ourselves. And with 60 extra hours a week to practice, we’d get pretty good.

Good stuff, glad you’ve got the spirit of self education about you, you might even want to sell on some of those skills to other people, perhaps to the people making your boat and your keel.

My god, the capitalist system still works after all, who’d have thunk it. Perhaps it’s resilient after all.

If you sail, how do you afford the safety equipment required for sailing? How do you afford to maintain your boat?

With all that time freed up, earning the cash for a boat would take weeks not years?

Failing that there’s always a dugout canoe 🙂

Exactly, my point is people will still have to exchange services (work) for something (money) – and if there is still a system whereby people can earn money all that happens is inequality rises.

I can see a post-currency society working, but then again we need to be at such a high level of technology that any job that a person doesn’t want to do is automated. Automating a coffee shop is one thing, automating the entire construction chain of an underground sewer expansion is something else entirely.

Malvern Rider – Member

With all that time freed up, earning the cash for a boat would take weeks not years?

Well no – because as per my previous post – everyone has more disposable income now so the manufacturers have put their prices up as their target market has more money to spend. So you end up working the same amount of time for the same thing.

Remember we are keeping capitalism.

No-one is arguing for economic equality..

The inflation problem is the biggest potential issue that I see.

But then again, if essentials are catered for, some things would have to be lowered in price to catch customers who have decided to work fewer hours for less cash. And they could be, because the suppliers costs would have come down.

Hmm.

I could handle inflation for non essential items, it would settle at a certain level, sure the market would dictate the correct level.

Well no – because as per my previous post – everyone has more disposable income now so the manufacturers have put their prices up as their target market has more money to spend.

Yay capitalism! If it works properly then it could take a lifetime to pay for that retirement dinghy mortgage 😉

Well no – because as per my previous post – everyone has more disposable income now so the manufacturers have put their prices up as their target market has more money to spend. So you end up working the same amount of time for the same thing.

Well, no again.

If you want a universal basic income, you have to pay for it. The reality would be you would be given ~£8k a year of benefits (a basic house + whatever) but the country would pay more tax. Most obvious way would be to abolish the tax free allowance.

so someone on the breadline at the moment earning ~£13k after tax would go to earning £6k and get £8k of benefits (numbers plucked out of the air to illustrate the point), and everyone above that point would pay slightly more but receive the same amount.

The problem would be the massive incentivization of cash in hand work. Currently, you might save VAT and the income tax on what you can spend as cash and the tax free allowance means low earners benefit nothing from cash in hand work. Higher tax and no allowance make that much harder.

With the added inefficientcies of moving money around some more

You own a boat already? How do you pay for the mooring on someones land? Petrol? Or do you sail? If you sail, how do you afford the safety equipment required for sailing? How do you afford to maintain your boat?

Yes. I can run a boat at zero cost indefinately, or at least for a very long time. But even if I couldn’t I’d just have to give up eating Lobster. I’ve managed without lobster for my entire life to date, so I’d cope. If the only flaw you can think of is that I’d be able to start eating lobster but then have to stop when something that I couldn’t repair on my boat got broken you’re really not thinking hard enough!

The inflation problem is the biggest potential issue that I see.

That is a problem. But the real problem is giving everyone the means to completely stop paying tax or pay far less tax whilst also using tax to give everyone a house and food is flawed.

Good stuff, glad you’ve got the spirit of self education about you, you might even want to sell on some of those skills to other people,

Nope. I wouldn’t work for cash – not least because nobody would have any becasue we wouldn’t be working. There would be a bit of light bartering going on but not much else.

In a post work UK we would be like retired people are now. We’d have less money but more time to help each other out with reciprocal favors. We might do the odd bit of easy work as required.

I don’t see a problem with doing work as required, sounds great to me. Sounds much better to me than a system where probably more than half the people in it work just to keep the system going.

Your arguments are ridiculous.

With the added inefficientcies of moving money around some more

This.

On average we all have to pay for our own house, food and internet. If on average we all continue to pay for our own house, food and internet but the state provide it then we’re just adding a needless layer of indirection. If on average we aren’t then where’s it coming from?

thisisnotaspoon – Member

If you want a universal basic income, you have to pay for it. The reality would be you would be given ~£8k a year of benefits (a basic house + whatever) but the country would pay more tax. Most obvious way would be to abolish the tax free allowance.

so someone on the breadline at the moment earning ~£13k after tax would go to earning £6k and get £8k of benefits (numbers plucked out of the air to illustrate the point), and everyone above that point would pay slightly more but receive the same amount.

Forgive me if i’m not quite grasping this but that just sounds like our existing benefit system, just with extra steps, and with the poor getting poorer. (Less cash after benefits)

And that also requires people to work to raise that tax – isn’t the whole point of UBI that people don’t have to work?

The inflation problem is the biggest potential issue that I see.

Trad economics suggests that only if there’s new money being poured into the system in order to spread it around. If it’s just “activity” (people will still spend the money in shops, and it’ll be recirculated) then inflation isn’t going to be a problem…However that argument doesn’t seem to apply nowadays. Essentially this IS what the B.O.E has been doing for the banks (giving them free money) for the last decade or so, inflation isn’t an issue currently…

Trad economics suggests that only if there’s new money being poured into the system in order to spread it around.

That’s my take. Giving everyone a massive incentive to make do with massively reduced cash spending is about as anti-inflationary as you can get.

People would think of ways to avoid work by going into hyper make-do-and-mend/barter mode and they’d have more time to repair stuff where before they’d buy new.

People would think of ways to avoid work by going into hyper make-do-and-mend/barter mode and they’d have more time to repair stuff where before they’d buy new.

I see that as a positive to this for the earth rather than wastefully making rich people richer…..

Interesting debate, and some interesting opinions.

Nice to read there are considerate nice people out there (molgrips) … disappointing to read there are bitter horrible people out there (weeksy)

isn’t the whole point of UBI that people don’t have to work?

no.

If people are just going to give up earning extra. Why do rich people keep earning? Are they a different breed from the rest of or something?

Why don’t I cut back to 3 days a week. I could easily survive…

Not sure if inflation would occur, especially if people start quitting jobs.

UBI is happening in Finland I think. Actually iirc its jobseekers allowance no questions asked.

Wrong.
Firstly taxing the better off is immoral. Its unfair. Tax should be the same. If you are clever enough to earn more then you should be applauded not punished. Fair is treating all the same not according to some arbitrary need.
Secondly handouts should be valued. I would applaud any system that insists that any government hand out must be balanced by a contribution to the state. So no job equal a payment which in it turn must equal some form of service. Street cleaning, etc. Something with few skills so all can do.
Thirdly more money handed out means more exploitation. If the system had some control then maybe. I resent benefits being used to buy luxuries when I’m working for mine and so often others suffer. Eg Mum smoking and kids poorly clad. Why not, as must be possible in this day and age have benefits purely card based which can only be spent on the essentials? Of course this can be bypassed but it would help.

Oh yeah. Here we have the usual examples of those preaching love and cuddles to all being nasty to any who dare to oppose their views. Very nice!