@razor Black Cabbies can’t choose their fares or their vehicle. If people think Black cabs are too expensive they can use a mini cab and/or lobby TfL to reduce fares.

There is absolutely nothing stopping these 40,000 drivers signing up for a mini cab firm from now on.

But they may not want to, as per that article..it’s harder to choose their shifts, and can suffer the prejudices of a dispatcher.

Where I live black cabs don’t drive past every 5 minutes. And I could call a mini cab, wait half an hour and hope they turn up, often in a dirty. Or I can get an uber, wait 5-10 mins, know what I will pay (definitely less than a mini cab), be able to see exactly where it is en route and not need cash to pay. Tough choice.

however much of this seems to me that the established industry doesn’t like a disruptor challenging its monopoly.

This is exactly what this is about….lobbying by a group who are unfairly privileged

Petition against the decision :

https://www.change.org/p/save-your-uber-in-london-saveyouruber

I really don’t see why this is relevant

Tax mainly

If Uber are a taxi company they should play by taxi rules
If Uber are a mini cab company they should play by mini cab rules

They do neither

I see no reason you can’t have an app based mini cab dispatcher (re bias above)

I really don’t see why this is relevant

Because ultimately by not paying tax (by hook or by crook is a different argument), they can undercut the competition.

The same way Starbucks get’s an unfair advantage over your local independent coffee shop because they don’t pay tax. Yes, the minicabs could all jump ship to the IoM, Netherlands or Caymans but it’s not as easy for small businesses. Which is one of the reasons regulators like a “fit and proper” clause, the same stick is being used to beat Murdoch at the moment over the Sky/Fox merger.

Like it or not, until there is a global tax system (!), companies minimizing their tax burden is the way of the world today.

And it is irrelevant, because that’s not why they’ve lost their license

If Uber are a mini cab company they should play by mini cab rules

But they do for the most part, at least im the Uk market. Where the problem might be coming from is their working ahead of legislation. Normally to operate in a town or city (private hire) you need a licensed driver and a licensed vehicle with calls coming through an operator licensed in that authority. It’s perfectly legal for me as a Cardiff driver (conventional private hire driver) to take calls in London providing the customer calls our office in Cardiff. Uber has been using drivers licensed from authorities outside London in London. They have offices in these towns and due to the way the internet works ride bookings route through these.
It seems Uber is reluctant to share these out of town drivers details with transport London. I’m not sure why but it’s nothing that more up to date legislation couldn’t solve.

Taxi firstly I appreciate your input. Do you think it’s easier and/or cheaper to register / licence outside London ? My guess is yes, much

You can’t book an Uber an hour in advance never mind a week or two. I want to be able to know the fare in advance as per a normal mini-cab. These are two bery important features of mini cabs which Uber doe not follow.

@TwoDogs taxis are licenced, you can make it a condition of the licence they are based in the UK (well once we are out of the EU we can). I also think given the business model they should pay VAT too.

No doubt in my mind Uber are on a path to driverless cars (already testing that in some US cities where tellingly to ride one you must agree NOT to sue them in the event of an accident 😯 ). So at that point the 40,000 Uber drivers and most of the black cab drivers are claiming unemployment benefits.

You can’t book an Uber an hour in advance never mind a week or two.

You can – click “schedule a trip”

I want to be able to know the fare in advance as per a normal mini-cab.

Fair point, but it gives you an estimate, and I’ve never been disappointed with the result relative to the estimate. And some minicabs will run on a meter rather than a flat fare- eg. in Glasgow.

No doubt in my mind Uber are on a path to driverless cars

I do very much agree with this, It’s defiantly part of their long game. As to the rest it’s down to choice black cabs and conventional private hire taxis will still exist even if their market share is reduced.
As an aside from a self employed private hire drivers perspective uber is a huge leap forward. The format gives me a much greater control of my working environment especially from a safety aspect. I don’t carry much cash, all my customers have traceable accounts, and uber guarantees my fares, so no runners. Passenger safety is hugely important but assaults on drivers by passengers far outnumber driver assaults on passengers. Since working with uber I’ve never had an “uncomfortable” rider experience.

@ally that’s interesting about the pre booking, I have only used them a few times and when I tried to book 30 mins in advance the app would not allow it – that was some time ago. The “surge pricing” can and is manipulated, drivers stay logged off until they see the surge coming into play (you can watch the fares with a customer login)

Also Uber used technology to monitor taxi regulators in the US who where legitimately trying to monitor whether Uber was abiding by the rules – they where not.

As an aside from a self employed private hire drivers perspective uber is a huge leap forward. The format gives me a much greater control of my working environment especially from a safety aspect. I don’t carry much cash, all my customers have traceable accounts, and uber guarantees my fares, so no runners. Passenger safety is hugely important but assaults on drivers by passengers far outnumber driver assaults on passengers. Since working with uber I’ve never had an “uncomfortable” rider experience.

These are all very good points and I agree with them – they can do all of this and pay uk taxes and comply with TfL rules INCLUDING being licenced as proper London taxis with all their specific requirements

Interesting that comment(s) above about Uber’s long/end game being driverless cars appear on the chat forum of a biking mag but…..I digress.
I suggest reading the opinion piece by Bez on the home page which starts from the Alliston case and then moves onto considering ‘autonomous’ vehicles – Uber’s long term objective (?) – and the implications for other road users.

As for the subject, if Uber demonstrate full compliance with TfL’s requirements and a willingness to co-operate that would be a start point.
Issues regarding their tax status and how/where they route profits is an issue which only central gov can address; it is not a local issue but it certainly is a national and pan-national tax matter.

jambalaya – Member

Also Uber used technology to monitor taxi regulators in the US who where legitimately trying to monitor whether Uber was abiding by the rules – they where not.

And didn’t they also have employees tracking Uber customers for non-business related purposes. Like ex-partners?

Generally an all-round pretty nasty company.

taxis are licenced, you can make it a condition of the licence they are based in the UK (well once we are out of the EU we can)

Oh dear god…so are you only going to allow coffee companies registered in the UK to sell coffee? Or mobile phone manufacturers registered here to sell phones?

Anyway, getting off topic..interesting to hear taxi25’s view

Uber isn’t a taxi company

It’s a disrupter – and a great pity to lose it.

Coming soon – disruption; to your job, way of life.

thm – disrupter or not, Uber must comply with legal and operational standards; any halfwit can claim to be a disrupter and proceed to ignore legislation and established operating standards while operating tax dodging policies.

Should we ignore H&S, disclosure & barring, grayball software?

How many Uber’s have in-car vid recording? Compare & contrast with black cabs

No need to lose Uber; all they need to do is be legislatively compliant and provide information as required by TfL. As for their tax status, my post ^^^ refers; it’s a central gov issue. Employment status of drivers is another separate issue.

Disrupter – from the country which gave us donald j trump as president.

Have used Uber in Edinburgh many times and their drivers have been exemplary. On the whole, all of the private hire taxis are good here…. bar the one driver from the airport private hire who got angry when we wanted to pay on card. Seriously, if you’re going to evade tax make it a bit more subtle surely? We made sure his employer/contractor knew of his actions…

If Uber is not complying then I agree with the action in London. I expect Uber will continue to operate for the long term though

And didn’t they also have employees tracking Uber customers for non-business related purposes.

It was god view although is now allegedly restricted.
Their active interference with Lyft doesnt exactly come across well either.

They are of that breed of “technology company” whose approach is mostly based around shouting “sharing economy” and using it as an excuse to avoid laws.

If Uber are a taxi company they should play by taxi rules
If Uber are a mini cab company they should play by mini cab rules

This distinction is purely fabricated in the UK to protect the ‘hackney carriage’ business. It’s protectionism pure and simple. In any other country in the world and taxi is a taxi- you can either call them and book them or hail them down from the side of the street or use an Uber like app to order one. Simple, convenient, cheap. We’re way behind the curve on this in this country.

this is all politicking and the only people who will be negatively affected are the consumers. It’ll reflect badly on the traditional taxi’s in the end and WHEN Uber get their license back then there will be a surge of people using them again after weeks or months of being forced to use black cabs.

Piece from the Independent

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uber-london-ban-latest-news-scandals-rape-women-sexual-assault-ride-hailing-app-tfl-india-a7961236.html

Transport for London has announced it will not renew ride-sharing app Uber’s licence, because it had identified a “lack of corporate responsibility” in the company.

The statement highlighted four major areas of concern: the company’s approach to reporting criminal offences, the obtaining of medical certificates, its compliance with Enhanced Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) checks on employees, and its use of controversial Greyball software to “block regulatory… access to the app”.

@wobbli of course people use Uber, it’s much cheaper. It’s cheaper because they cut corners and don’t follow the rules. Black Cabs don’t set the rules they follow them

If people think Black cabs are too expensive they can use a mini cab

2 months ago I was down in Greenwich. Not a black cab to be seen. As a duck out of water how do I find a mini cab ? Seriously it’s not that easy to find one that won’t rip you off as a tourist, or isn’t a bit ‘rapey’, or will actually turn up !

Black cabs do have to follow the rules, but they are outdated stupid rules!

As to mini cab firms being sole of the earth legitimate tax paying companies, with the finest drivers, quality cars, non rapey staff. Yeah right

@wobbli of course people use Uber, it’s much cheaper. It’s cheaper because they cut corners and don’t follow the rules. Black Cabs don’t set the rules they follow them

Of course black cab drivers don’t under declare their cash takings, oh no that’s never happened. 😀 They just bought their big houses in Chigwell and golf club membership on tax paid earnings 😉

Bit confused why tfl decided it was necessary to offer 5k subsidies and generous terms re starts date to dirty diesel taxi drivers to comply with the new ultra low emission zone when others such as the police, LAS, and fire brigade are offered no help

Cooweee, 450k opposing Sadiqs decision…. what’s the betting that petition hits 1m..

Seems the Kids are uprising … taking back control..

Jamba, which actual rules do they not actually follow. Don’t cite black hac rules as the courts have established they are minicabs, so which minicab (private hire) rules are they breaking?

TFL’s listed issues are somewhat vague. It’s not clear how or when they were asked to provide the information that is not adequate; we haven’t heard Uber’s reasons for not providing them. Is grayball any different to a call handler who recognises voices/behaviour of bad customers? Is there evidence is is being used in the uk to avoid spot checks? (That seems odd to me as every uber I have been in, anywhere in the world, has always been well presented etc.)

Uber has also been banned or restricted in many parts of Germany. Which means that Sadiq Khan can appeal to his Deutschland Uber allies.

HT- @Heresy_Corner

Since when did Jamby give a **** about corporates not paying tax?

I find it more likely that the only reason he hates Uber is that it’s putting mockney wide boy saaarff Lahndaners out of work. Wide boys like this one.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNUlpQf9hXU[/video]

Glad to see there is a boycott out on black taxis now.

This distinction is purely fabricated in the UK to protect the ‘hackney carriage’ business. It’s protectionism pure and simple. In any other country in the world and taxi is a taxi- you can either call them and book them or hail them down from the side of the street or use an Uber like app to order one. Simple, convenient, cheap. We’re way behind the curve on this in this country

Über are banned in Germany.

Heard a radio doc last year. Five average London cabbies paverage more tax combined than Uber.

Über are of the same ilk as AirB’n’B. Disruptors are all well and good, but they do not play by the same rules (generally specific to tax rules) as others which is why they can dominate a market by throwing advertising money – which is funded by investors – until the old system collapses…. All the while declaring zero profit.

Friends of mine rent their gaff in Berlin via AirB’n’B. Crazy left wing socialists on all matters other the “sharing” economy. In their eyes they are the ones profiteering and taking back control. Just don’t mention to them the tax that neither they nor AirB’n’B pay….

Since when did Jamby give a **** about corporates not paying tax?

Quite often on here. Since when did that matter?

kerb-crawling erratic Uber drivers are menace to safety on London streets. for that reason alone I’m glad about this decision.

Since when did that matter?

It doesn’t matter if it fits the narrative.

😉

I stopped using uber in California after hearing of all their dodgy business practices and switched to Lyft.

It was interesting talking to the drivers about just how much they dislike uber as well.

having said that I do use Uber Black when in Johannesburg as it is a safe and reliable option, and there’s no cyclists or pedestrians to run over.

Guys, I’m a London cabbie, I’ve really struggled the last few years to pay my mortgage and provide for my family because of Uber, this is a stone cold fact. I’ve just finished 2 years of night school and I’m retraining because I feel so pessimistic for my future doing a job that I took pride in doing for the last 20 years.
I don’t ever want to come across as a poor me but, I feel really aggrieved that a multinational company, funded by the Saudis, Goldman Sachs, Blackrock(now employing George Osbourne for doing very little….hmm) and other such ethicless entities have been allowed to try and wipe out my industry by undercutting the market unfairly. They pay their drivers peanuts, rob this country regarding paying taxes and disregard regulation for their own benefit, whilst losing billions each year.. they’re playing the long game hoping to eliminate the competition
It’s not an even playing field, there are lots of people that don’t give a rats guf about this, but I’ve had to do the Knowledge, it took 4 years, you might think thats outdated, its not outdated when I see a Toyota Prius turning left onto Delancey St from Albert St against the traffic on a one way system, this type of thing happens to me on a daily basis.
I have a limited choice of vehicle I can use, it has to be able to accommodate the disabled amongst other criteria. £35K for the last taxi, I won’t be able to afford the £50k hybrid TFL want us to use in the future.
I apologise for the semi rant, I’m only here atm because I didn’t want to watch X Factor with Mrs Flea downstairs.

This distinction is purely fabricated in the UK to protect the ‘hackney carriage’ business

That’s pure ignorant bollocks. Uber are banned in loads of places as they circumvent taxi laws. Same with Air BnB. I’m quite happy to see both taxis and hotels getting a bit of a shakeup, but watching a foreign corporation making an easy buck by ignoring local law sticks in my craw… Why should they be made to have insurance, follow fire codes, register themselves etc when these American companies don’t have to? Either we need the regulation or we don’t, but there must be a level playing field.

What’s worrying about this removal of the license is apparently Uber have been trying to meet Sadiq Khan/TfL or representatives since Khan was elected but have been turned down at every request. Lyft who haven’t launched yet in the UK have had 3 face to face meetings with those same officials. I’d be interested to know how many accusations levelled at Uber since the license news have been seriously addressed to them by the police or TfL.

For all I know, TfL have been telling Lyft to piss off but I doubt it. Perhaps I’m just jaded but the whole thing (including Labour’s statements) have the smell of a big PR campaign to appease the taxi-lobby, unions and to make labour voters think that Khan and his lot are supporting the working man (despite the fact a lot of these drivers are themselves probably the voters they want).

It does sound like Uber need to improve their processes and policies particularly when it comes to safety both on the road and in terms of criminal activities but it seems a touch odd to refuse meetings and then claim that Uber aren’t responsive to change, unless you’re grandstanding.

barrytheflea – I’m genuinely sorry for your troubles. I’ve known a couple of cabbies in London and nobody wants to see anyone out of work. I’ve not lived in the UK for 6 years so it’s possible that the competition has changed things in terms of customer service but having been ripped off, yelled at for “wasting my time” or being refused a ride because “It’s out of my way” and so on, I’ve avoided black cabs where possible over 20 years in London. I appreciate it’s tarring all cabbies with the same brush but the model is a bit broken as it stands today.