… on Edinburgh’s Leith Walk. Wouldn’t it have been better to have a right turning dedicated cycle lane in the middle of the road with advance lights for bikes, rather than have them turn left to turn right?

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/cyclists-to-get-pioneering-two-stage-right-turn-on-leith-walk-1-4580112

Edit: oh, and those bus stop bypass lanes are an accident waiting to happen.

Sod that. I’d be in the right hand lane with the cars.

Wow, how to over complicate things. As a regular donator to Sustrans, I can see all my £ and more going on the paint for one bus stop bypass lane 🙁

Why not simply arrange the phasing of the lights so that right turning traffic (including bikes) get a clear run, thereby eliminating the ‘stuck in the middle of the junction’ scenario?
I have to navigate a right turn at the lights, on my drive home from work, and it is so badly phased, there is often only enough time for one or two cars to turn right on each phase of green (unless you count the 3 or 4 others who chance it on amber or red)

As for the bus stop bypass, it just seems like a waste of pavement as, actually stated in the video, “pedestrians may cross the cycle lane at any point” (the word ‘may’ could mean ‘are likely to’ or ‘are allowed to’, so it’s all a bit vague. I would be more likely to just wait for the bus to get going again – without sitting in its exhaust plume, or (more likely) try to avoid routes like that, if possible.
Actually, now I think about it, why not just use the pavement space to create a pull-in area for the bus, thereby allowing any traffic to get past without impediment? – this would eliminate the bike/pedestrian interaction, too.

It’s a case of trying to divert the ‘problem’ elsewhere, rather than dealing with it properly.

Dodgiest part of my whole commute is on the cycle path past the local airport bus stop, goes round the back of it like that in the link.

Doesn’t help that it’s not see through on either approach, so you don’t ever know if there’s anyone in it, and there’s regularly folk wandering around with suitcases or on phones.

They’ve got bus stop bypasses in Brighton…I think they are a good solution to the leap frogging on a busy bus route. The bus stops are on an island so its pretty obvious to pedestrians that they are crossing a cycle lane.

https://goo.gl/maps/ws895CUDtL32

That second stage turn looks awkward. Throw a dozen slightly confused cyclists at it and a bunch of traffic and I can see it being a mess. Much the same with the bus bypass. At least they are trying I suppose 😕

You really don’t build good cycling infrastructure with a pot of paint 🙁

Another in the series of “it’ll all work out if we can get the cyclists to change their behaviours.”

A) 6 cyclists wanting to turn right. Advance green light goes on and they all start turning left and into the reservoir. Only the first one doesn’t realise there’s 5 behind and leaves them no room. The lights go green for cars and the driver turning left now has nowhere to.

B) The reservoir on the left is already occupied by a vehicle that didn’t stop early enough – or by a bunch of cyclists.

C) You’re moving along in the cycle lane but want to turn right, so you go left and so does the vehicle behind you, side-swiping you as you effectively do a u-turn in front of it.

D) You actually want cyclists to wait for two sets of lights?

Putting these things in place will actually aggravate other road users when cyclists choose not to use them. Carry out normal right turn and expect to be buzzed, beeped and shouted at for not using the shitty “infrastructure”. Same with the bus stop idea.

This is how it’s done in many places, Copenhagen, Amsterdam, etc, and it works, the challenge is going from the cycle track which is now off road, into the right turn lane, so you do it in two stages, it’s unusual here because it’s the first, but it’s much safer, particularly for less experienced cyclists.

Yes if you ride bikes it’s pretty easy to come up with that list, makes you wonder who’s designing this stuff?

Designing it for people that don’t ride bikes! I.e. to get those interested but concerned cyclists out of their cars.

Everyone’s an expert. It’s a classic Copenhagen left (right)
Edit: what rs said

That’s fine as long as the drivers and peds adopt euro attitudes too.

I detect a hint of the old “it will never work over here” attitude. We are people, we’ll manage . I think anyhow!

Yep I’ve ridden it in Copenhagen and it works great – like a fluid ballet of bikes. But there are crucial differences over there:-

1)The bikes have total priority over any left / right turning vehicle traffic (we don’t in the UK). Turning traffic obeys this rule and approaches accordingly slowly (in the UK they just floor it).

2)Motor vehicles are presumed liable for accidents unless proved otherwise. This reinforces the slow, careful driver behaviour in 1 that makes the junctions work.

3)Pedestrians obey their own sequenced crossing, so they never tangle with bikes.

4)Cyclists also chill out, obey their lights and the “correct” way to use the crossings. I spent a few hours with a roadie, and it just wasn’t the done thing to blast around in the city – training rides were a cruise until you got out of town.

Well said Mick.

Points 1 and 2 are general points around cycling in continental europe which whilst are valid do not mean this particular scheme won’t work.

Points 3 and 4, how did they ‘over there’ reach this nirvana like status? Why can that not be implemented here through schemes such as this that prioritise walking and cycling ? Do we just give up?

The whole thing is badly thought out. I will not be using any of these new cycle lanes. Far too dangerous

Actually, I was thinking off that dodgy right turn you had on your commute and thinking this was potentially the solution.

I never said it wouldn’t work.

Points 1 and 2 are some of the enablers that help it work.

The “I want to do my own thing” shown in this thread is partly why we struggle to achieve 3 and 4 🙂

Mick r – living near the cycle path in question it is appaling badly designed, put you in the blind spot of cars at junctions, puts you on a narrow pavement and crosses side roads.

I am going to have fun with the council over this asking under foi for all the risk assessments around it. It was not a dangerous spot anyway before this and the cycle lanes actually increase danger if you attempted to use them

I guess they’ve been doing it wrong in Copenhagen all this time, or in every best practice guideline released in recent years, but i’m sure tj knows better 🙄

If this was done in exactly the same way as in Copenhagen, with all other requirements the same I expect it would work fine. I should be very surprised if it is – some of the issues have already been mentioned (issues which I expect would result in it being done differently in Copenhagen). Because typically ideas like this seem to be borrowed here without a proper understanding of how they work – the points raised by mick are rather more significant than others seem to think, without them it fundamentally won’t work well.

rs – sources please? I never came across a junction like this in touring the netherlands and belgium. Nor can I believe it fits the best practice guidelines.

so – sources please.

There are many, i’m most familiar with North American guides these days, but these are generally following best practice from Europe. NACTO guides are the most progressive i’d say, but most others are following their lead, two examples relevant here…

Intersection Treatments

Cycle Facilities at Transit Stop

Here’s a few from my own travels…

Copenhagen
[url=https://flic.kr/p/WZFe9Y]IMG_7100[/url]

Copenhagen, getting ready to make a two stage turn, no markings required, its just how they do it.

[url=https://flic.kr/p/XEo6i3]IMG_7114[/url]

Malmo

[url=https://flic.kr/p/Y1gLY1]IMG_7456[/url]

Portland

[url=https://flic.kr/p/L2RUTH]IMG_6018[/url]

Amsterdam

[url=https://flic.kr/p/Lnwgys]IMG_1997[/url]

Masterful riposte. Everyday is a school day. Never seen the two stage turn before

Things about this particular one

The bit behind bus stops is hardly marked on leith walk – its level with the pavement. Its about half the width of those pictures. The dismount from both lanes onto the road is in the blind spot of cars turning left. On the downhill side cars will park in it. You cross a number of side roads where cars will not be expecting you. Its on a fairly steep hill. Downhill 30 mph is easy – on a pavement outside a busy shop and behind a bustop?

thing is – this was not needed. these were not dangerous junctions / stretch of road. A couple of hundred yards away is picardy place / leith street – a very nasty junction for bikes and with plenty of space for a properly segregated cycleway.

this is so poorly designed and dangerous the whole scheme I will never use it. With a few months there will be both pedestrians and cyclists injured because of it

tjagain – Member
Masterful riposte. Everyday is a school day.

Quoted for the record 🙂

The grades are the only real issue I see with this, this type of facility is for slower speed cycling, not pinning it for a new strava record, again, we have a culture of the only people cycling being MAMIL’s because you have to be pretty fearless to ride on the roads, to get everyone cycling, this is what it takes, albeit on a city wide basis.

Drivers will adjust, they should always be looking before turning, cyclists should also be aware of the risks and ride appropriately, i.e. slow down and check to see if anyone is turning, likewise around pedestrians, take care and don’t ride like a dick. Not every bike ride has to be a race, slow down, enjoy your safe cycling facilities, and at least give it a shot first.

You say this wasn’t needed, this video says otherwise…

[video]https://youtu.be/u1wT0FpDIE4[/video]

Credit where credit is due 😉

Errmm – that vid is before the new cycle lane – you can see the start of the new lane at the end of that vid. Not sure whats wrong with that vid anyway = bar the double parked cars. No conflict with traffic

Its too dangerous to even risk trying. its the exits back onto the mainroad that is of most concern – that and crossing the side streets

😆

You say this wasn’t needed, this video says otherwise…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1wT0FpDIE4

I don’t understand – how will the new stuff stop people double parking in the cycle lane?

What that video shows me is that they need to cut down on double parking.

I realize thats before, thats the point, before and after if you like. Imagine someone you know cycling that section in the video, someone that doesn’t normally ride, likely they’re just not going to ride there because its a mess, hence the need for a safer off-road option.

I’m just glad to see Edinburgh finally looking at some progressive options, as when I was back two months ago for the first time in six years, its woefully lacking compared to other major cities.

I don’t understand – how will the new stuff stop people double parking in the cycle lane?

well i’m only going by the video but it looks like some of it is separated by a curb, and some by some delineator bumps, not guaranteed to stop people parking there, but better than the on-road existing bike lane, will no doubt need enforcement though, judging by the example sin the video.

Actually RS that bit was no issue to anyone even newbs because of the width – there is still a lane to the right for cars even after the double parked ones. Further up there are issues – around picardy place leith street.

CEC are notorious for badly designed cycle lanes in places they are not needed. This is one. I agree Edinburgh is lacking in cycle provision – this sort of useless scheme does not help. CEC will not put in cyclways if it impedes cars at all – hence we get the ones that disappear when the road gets narrow – like this one does. Its not needed on the sction where it is been built it is needed further up where nothing has been done.

The end of the downhill bit is about where the parked car is in this picture. Bikes are going to join the road at speed right in the blind spot of someone turning left. Its absurdly dangerous
https://goo.gl/maps/ee7vjnGzp6q

What that video shows me is that they need to cut down on double parking.

that would be good to free up the on-road bike lane, on-road bike lanes do little to encourage cycling though, off-road provides a safer feel, separated somewhat from traffic thus encouraging those less experienced cyclists to ride.

It’s not a question of whether separated infrastructure is a good idea – I expect even tj might agree with that if you explained it to him slowly enough 😉 It’s a question of whether what they implement will be a good idea. Nothing in that video, or the comments on the article are very reassuring. The bit at the very end of the video is at least honest – personally I’d expect to find pedestrians wandering all across a bike path built as part of the pavement.

one in southampton was supposed to have advanced bike only lights – this got taken out of the plan at some point. 🙄

In addition there is no room to make the (first) manoeuvre; which is effectively a u-turn on top of a traffic island. i tried it for the first week – but found it awkward and time consuming. it is an improvement on the terribly placed roundabout that was the previous junction.

i use it most days. i move from the cycle lane to the right hand lane.

RS – this is not part of a network of offroad cycling. Its a couple of hundred yards of stand alone facility with on street cycleways each end. Seriously wait until you try to ride it. The downhill exit is the worst aspect but I am still not clear what they have done with the priority for the side roads the cycle way crosses.

I am in favour of the dutch solution – 20 mph limits with pedestrian and cycle priority in residential streets, proper well thought out segregated ways on main roads

from the static image in the video It looks like the cycle tracks ramp down and become regular bike lanes through the intersections, thus they operate no differently than a regular bike lane, i.e. bikes have priority over side road traffic. I realize this is just a short section, they have to start somewhere… I look forward to seeing it in operation though, if anyone on this thread has a gopro…

I don’t think so – they join the side roads about 2 m up the road from the main road.