Viewing 36 posts - 1 through 36 (of 36 total)
  • Turbo Blues – anyone else suffer from differentiated power results on the turbo?
  • geetee1972
    Free Member

    I know for a fact that my FTP is (at least) 280 watts as this was established recently in a 25mile TT (that I did in 1hr 20 seconds with an avg output of 280 watts).

    I’ve been trying some specific power development routines built around this number and I’m no where close to being able to complete them.

    For example, the ‘under/over’ routine, where you ride 2 mins at your FTP and then 1 min at FTP +10 watts, and then repeat this set three times (four in total), then easy pedaling for 5 mins and then repeat the set twice more, is so uncomfortable I can barely manage the first set let alone the next two.

    Thinking about what hurts, the answer is just everything; legs, torso, arse, genetalia (which ends up dumb), everything. I end up ‘giving up’ and yet on the bike on the road I can churn out 335 watts for 7-min effot up Box Hill and sure it’s hurts like hell, but I have no problem doing it.

    Why does it hurt so much more on the turbo?

    njee20
    Free Member

    Presumably you’re using the same power meter on the turbo, rather than using an in built reading or sommat?

    I find similar though, I can push harder in real life, I think it’s the distractions. When it hurts on the turbo there’s nothing else to think about! The slightly unnatural position (no bike movement) and the extra heat, even with a fan, don’t help I don’t think.

    Rubber_Buccaneer
    Full Member

    I have always thought similar but didn’t have any way to measure whether it was real or perceived. My guesses were the fact my bike is held rigid on the turbo and I overheat more causing it to take more effort to produce less.

    geetee1972
    Free Member

    Presumably you’re using the same power meter on the turbo, rather than using an in built reading or sommat?

    Yes – it’s a Stages unit on the race bike, which then goes on the trainer.

    Nick I think you’re spot on with your answers, just surprised it makes that much difference. The no bike movement is the biggest issue I think, although in the TT I was pretty good at holding the tuck position.

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    Cooling is a big one, but the psychological side is big too, it’s too easy to stop pedalling on the turbo.

    Worth thinking about saddle choice as well, if you are uncomfortable down there it’s going to make riding tougher.

    njee20
    Free Member

    I think on longer intervals, or tougher sessions, on the road you can throw in a quick out of the saddle effort, just a few pedal strokes, to get yourself back on top of the gear, almost without realising as it’ll often coincide with a small rise or whatever.

    I don’t think the same really works on the turbo, you tend to drift off your power (I do anyway), and then find it’s a big effort to get back on it.

    adsh
    Free Member

    Pain and cooling.

    HR is elevated for a given power output merely to cool which reduces blood flow to muscles

    Pain is much greater as there is nothing else to concentrate on and you know how many more reps of this agony are to come.

    It’s better to adjust your session so you have a chance of completing.

    I struggle to complete 6x5mins Z5 intervals enough that I now do them as hill repeats instead – yours sounds a different level of pain.

    Reconsiders purchase of power meter….

    jameso
    Full Member

    For example, the ‘under/over’ routine, where you ride 2 mins at your FTP and then 1 min at FTP +10 watts, and then repeat this set three times (four in total), then easy pedaling for 5 mins and then repeat the set twice more, is so uncomfortable I can barely manage the first set let alone the next two.

    I’m not suprised .. I don’t have a power meter but I know roughly where my threshold effort is and 4x 12 mins at/over would be really tough. 25 mins+ continual at or just over ‘my perceived FTP’ level as a one-off test is utterly horrible and 2x 15 mins is hard, if anything dropping the level seems to make it harder to go back up. From what I understand and I may be wrong, an effective session is one where you can barely make the last set and not hitting the full level is ok as long as you do the time. In fact that’s the type of stress you need and where the gains are had, not in the first 3?

    1hr 20 seconds with an avg output of 280 watts

    So your FTP may be higher – isn’t FTP your 30 minute max average?

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    There are loads of different “thresholds”, but FTP specifically is hour power.

    session is one where you can barely make the last set and not hitting the full level is ok as long as you do the time. In fact that’s the type of stress you need and where the gains are had, not in the first 3?

    If you’re not hitting your power target then you’re probably not training what you are trying to train anymore.

    jameso
    Full Member

    Ok – I’m mixing LTHR level and FTP then. Thought they were the same.

    geetee1972
    Free Member

    I don’t think the same really works on the turbo, you tend to drift off your power (I do anyway), and then find it’s a big effort to get back on it.

    This is so so true.

    Adsh – yep another good summary and spot on. I think you’re right about adjusting expectations.

    ac282
    Full Member

    FTP is your maximum average power for an hour. It roughly corresponds with the power at which you can maintain a steady level of lactate in your blood.

    jameso
    Full Member

    If you’re not hitting your power target then you’re probably not training what you are trying to train anymore.

    Meant towards the end of the last rep, as a guide to being sure you’re going beyond your capacity a little? But point taken if it’s a sign the session isn’t optimum. Sorry, OT anyway.

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    Would seriously look at saddle though if you are getting a lot of numbness. Swapped to a different saddle recently and found turbo work became a lot more difficult due to the discomfort. Swapped back and it’s ok again now.

    geetee1972
    Free Member

    Would seriously look at saddle though

    Will do; it is only a problem on the turbo but still, numbness isn’t a good thing.

    DenDennis
    Free Member

    This is interesting as I only have a turbo with power meter and I find it hard at what I think should be relatively easy power levels.

    with your over-under intervals, arent you supposed to do the 2min bit at ‘under’ the 280, rather than at it?
    though are you saying if you do 2mins at 280 then 1 at 290 you’re kippered, yet you can do 335 for 7 mins on the road?
    Is that 335 a constant, as in you are looking at power meter all the time Froome-style, or an average effort?….

    If the turbo does make such a difference I might be pushing out more power i real life than the turbo has lead me to believe so I can give myself a small pat on the back.

    monkeyfudger
    Free Member

    I find the same on intervals longer than 20 seconds, always down on power. My really short sprints are always more on the turbo though unless I’m racing, just can’t seem to get that last bit of power out on the road unless I’ve got someone in front of me.

    I also get a numb cock on the turbo which is worrying but can go hours and hours outside with no problems!

    njee20
    Free Member

    I also get a numb cock on the turbo which is worrying but can go hours and hours outside with no problems!

    Ditto.

    barrykellett
    Free Member

    What kind of turbo trainer are you using? Magnetic resistance by any chance?

    barrykellett
    Free Member

    An article you may find interesting and worthwhile:
    http://alex-cycle.blogspot.co.uk/2009/01/turbocharged-training.html

    geetee1972
    Free Member

    with your over-under intervals, arent you supposed to do the 2min bit at ‘under’ the 280

    Yes – I’m doing them at 270/290 but as Njee said, part of the problem is maintaining it at a smooth steady rate for a short space of time. Maintaining at 280 for one hour out on the road is relatively easy; I just ride at a rate I know I can sustain. But riding at any specific rate for two minutes is hard.

    are you saying if you do 2mins at 280 then 1 at 290 you’re kippered, yet you can do 335 for 7 mins on the road?

    I can do two and half total sets of four blocks, where one block is 2mins @270 and 1 min at 290 before I’m kippered.

    The 334watts for a 7-min effort was average wattage over that 7-mins, which was effectively the Box Hill official climbs segment.

    adsh
    Free Member

    You’re managing 2.5x4x2x270W and 2.5x4x1x290W which is 30 mins at an average of 276W.

    Make them blocks of 3 and you’ll probably finish but I have no clue if that’s better than fewer blocks of 4.

    This all has me worried that I am not training hard enough. In fact I’m ordered not to train at all in October because of the intensity to come. #worried

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Yes!

    When I was doing this I knew my 10 mile TT power bang on, and yet doing it for 5 mins on the turbo was torture. I mean absolute murder, leaving me feeling sick and with weak legs. There’s no way it’s psychological.

    I can only imagine it’s related to oxygen supply in the garage, but I had a fan and an open door and all. Somewhat more of an oddball theory is that clamping the QR produces odd strain on the hub which caused my powertap to under-read. Are you using a hub PM or something else?

    monkeyfudger
    Free Member

    For what it’s worth I’m on a crank based PM with temperature compensation.

    Think I’ll carry out a little experiment when I’m back onto indoor training and compare PE vs power on rollers vs turbo.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Also log HR vs power in both cases. And on road.

    geetee1972
    Free Member

    Are you using a hub PM or something else?

    No crank based. Couldn’t bear the idea of sitting in that garage hurting so I went out out instead. So much nicer to go for a ride. 60km, 230 watts average, never much above 85%. So so much more enjoyable.

    barrykellett
    Free Member

    You didn’t mention what trainer you are using yet?
    I only ask as in my opinion, it makes more difference than you could imagine.

    I’ve known several people to jack in turbo training because their magnetic resistance unit turbo had one setting that was a tiny bit too easy but the next level up was intolerably hard.

    I use a Kurt Kinetic Rock and Roll. The rock and roll aspect is quite nice. However, the big difference is the resistance unit and fly wheel.

    Read that article I posted up above, particularly the section on Inertial Load. If it isn’t right in your set up, no amount of big giant fans are going to make turbo training a goer for you.

    The-Swedish-Chef
    Free Member

    Good article, thanks for posting the link.

    Interesting that cycling is only 22% efficient at best.

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    I also get a numb cock on the turbo which is worrying but can go hours and hours outside with no problems!

    I think that’s just down to a lack of movement, I stick a timer on and stand up for 5-6 pedals every minute to replicate a corner/junction/roundabout/crest, no problems then.

    I wonder if rollers partialy aleviate this problem?

    geetee1972
    Free Member

    You didn’t mention what trainer you are using yet?

    Yes good point. I believe it’s an Elite Super Crono ElastoGel something or other. I actually got it ex-dem from the LBS so didn’t pay much attention to what it was but it doesn’t look like it uses magnets.

    Read that article I posted up above, particularly the section on Inertial Load. If it isn’t right in your set up, no amount of big giant fans are going to make turbo training a goer for you.

    I did read it and apologies for not thanking you sooner as it was both incredibly useful and very reassuring!

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    .Interesting that cycling is only 22% efficient at best.

    The human body isnt very efficient in general, where cycling does win is in an overall comparison, a car is also about 25% efficient, but it has to move 15x the mass, so in terms of moving a person is nearer 1.5% efficiency.

    DenDennis
    Free Member

    yes good article linked above, another question/point…

    with my turbo (tacx flow) you can set it to required a constant wattage, rather than resistance, so for example if you pick an easier gear, the resistance automatically goes up and vice versa.

    That obviously helps you keep a steady interval state much more definitive, and I wonder whether this turbo thing also actually feels harder because you are actually in that limit of your threshold zone rather than averaging it by going a bit over and a bit under (or even a lot over and a lot under) all the time???

    LS
    Free Member

    This effect has been discussed for years, it’s basically down to inertia, overheating, and motivation (not read the article linked to above but if it’s by Alex Simmons it probably says all that!).

    Get a bigger fan, find a turbo with a bigger flywheel and get used to hurting yourself for no apparent reason, and you can hit the same numbers as outside.

    njee20
    Free Member

    with my turbo (tacx flow) you can set it to required a constant wattage, rather than resistance, so for example if you pick an easier gear, the resistance automatically goes up and vice versa.

    My Imagic does that and I think it’s absolutely horrendous as a feature! As soon as you start to drift off the power it ramps up the resistance suddenly so I always just end up grinding along still not hitting the required numbers!

    I don’t necessarily want the resistance to increase if I change gear, I want to up my cadence. I don’t think it’s realistic to have a completely flat line of power – hence I always track 3s or even 10s averaged power.

    DenDennis
    Free Member

    njee: yeah, I know what you mean, if you ‘miss the cut’ as it were, and drop cadence too sharply it grinds you to a halt!!!

    though of course if you up the cadence it reduces the resistance to suit…

    geetee1972
    Free Member

    I don’t think it’s realistic to have a completely flat line of power – hence I always track 3s or even 10s averaged power.

    That’s a really good point actually; I’d seen those features on the Garmin but never really thought about why they would be better than just using actual power and overall average power but now I know.

Viewing 36 posts - 1 through 36 (of 36 total)

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