O.K so I’ve been keeping tropical fish for a year or so now and so far I’ve managed to get through quite a few fish. I’ve always been careful to select fish that supposedly get on with each other, you know the types, good table manners etc. the truth is apart from two tetra barbs everything else simply goes. Now my immediate reaction is o.k. its the tetras topping the others but not sure. All I do know is that no matter how many filter changes, or not, clean gravel, food and numerous other species introduced they all go except the tetra barbs……….who remain……..watching…….winking at me…….!!!

Any help gratefully received

Get a test kit, mainly Nitrite and Nitrates. Test your water , check results and monitor.Change water up to 50% maybe needed often at first to settle tank.

Heater set ok at between 22-26 degrees?

I only do 10-20% water changes every couiple of weeks. What sort of set up have you got?

Can’t see the fish taking the others to be honest. Oh and i can’t recall a Tetra Barb??

Do you mean a Tiger Barb (stripey+orange noses) if so they should be in groups of 5 or more ideally as they harrass others if in small numbers.

Look for advice on this forum also….

http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/

Learn how to keep the water and the fish will be ok!
It’s all about the water….
Regular water changes 20% weekly and you will be fine.

Chances are it could be the barbs! they are aggresive fish and will stress other fish in a small enviroment.
Try more barbs of other types but beware they grow quite a size, some clown loaches, catfish and maybe rummynosed tetras in a group should be ok in there with them.

How big is your tank, and what’s your water changing routine?

Wholly second Geoff – good water quality usually means happy fish.

May be worth posting your question on http://forum.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/ . Also talk to the folk in your local fish shop too – they should be able to identify your fish, which should give you a handle on what you can keep with them. Introducing new tiger barbs to an existing shoal may be a bit tricky – make sure you go for fish of a similar size. Making sure the tank is big enough (at least 4.5 l/inch of fish) and that there are enough plants for everyone to hide in may also help.

I have to say that I’d be reluctant to suggest talking to a local fish shop, my experiences of all most of the ones around Manchester were that they generally didn’t know what they were talking about, and didn’t really care about the fish they were selling.

As has been said before, making sure the water parameters are good and your nitrogen cycle is properly set up is the key to keeping fish, beyond that, it’s knowing about the fish you’re putting in your tank and making sure you provide the right environment for them.

I have to say that I’d be reluctant to suggest talking to a local fish shop, my experiences of all most of the ones around Manchester were that they generally didn’t know what they were talking about, and didn’t really care about the fish they were selling.

Man, that sucks. You need to move south. We have the best fish shops here! They take back any fish that you can’t get settled, they lend you stuff when yours breaks & is being repaired, they won’t sell stuff to you if they think you’ll kill it/house it wrongly and if you smile nicely & undo a shirt button they’ll give you free plants. And they do free water tests & give you free marine/RO water. My LFS rocks!

Assuming you have tested the water and are happy it is right, try isolating them for a bit and see how other fish get on.

You can get newborn tanks that sit in the corner of the main tank which would do the trick.

Put a Malawi cichlid in there to sort out the barbs.

NOTE: Do NOT put a malawi cichlid in there, it’ll be like Fish Thunderdome.

I’d suspect water quality rather than the barbs. Do you over stock it? Add a lot of fish in one go? Is the tank planted? using a decent dechlorinator on the replacment water, or leaving it to stand for a day?

I often find a little benign neglect helps – water changes every couple of weeks, washing the filter (in old tank water) only when it clogs.

If the tanks been set up a year its unlikley to be water quality that is the problem. Don’t do large water changes unless you treat the incomming water and depending on the size of the tank you can make the problem worse by inducing Ph/ temp shock. One of the biggest problems I used to see was people constantly faffing with tanks – changing large amounts of water, washing/changing filters, washing gravel/ decor constantly; all these things when done properly are good but if the tank is in the initial cycling stage they can slow that process down. If you only have two fish then leave be for at least 6 weeks and only put new fish in when the two in there are behaving normally (swimming around and eating).
I presume that by tetra barbs you mean tiger barbs in which case they should be in a large group so that agression is spread over a number of individuals rather than focussed on one fish. Though you could have alot of different fish as ‘tetra barb’ covers alot of fish from South America, Africa, and Asia!
My advice would be get shot of the tiger barbs (they can be a royal pain even in big groups) and then get some small south american tetras ( Neons/ Cardinals/ Rummy noses) and build up numbers that way.
Oh and its only my opinion but a tank with loads of small fish looks better than a tank with one gert big ‘personality’ fish.
Practical fishkeeping is a good place to go for advice too.

Learn how to keep the water and the fish will be ok!

Good advice

Regular water changes 20% weekly and you will be fine.

Same here, also TS you have not mentioned what size tank and type of filtration you are using?

Too many possibilities without knowing more about your setup.

Also what type of fish did you introduce & what symptoms did they have before they died?

I started my tank in October (40th pressie!) and had some problems to start with. 5/6 of my first 6 died due to white spot (AKA Ich) but I didn’t know what that was until I was told. Now it’s all settled (Takes a couple of months) it’s been pretty good. I do a 10% water change every week on the dot, I scrub in clean water all the ornamnets and wash the filters in the tanks water I’m removing. Gravel is cleaned using a special syphon tube during water changes, which works well.
I’m assuming you’re treating the water you replace and keeping it clean?
My LFS (Lynchford Aquatics in North Camp, Farnborough) are very good and happy to test my water for me for free.
You can get medicine to treat white spot, which seems to work well, but you have to remove your carbon filter when dosing for a week.
Mainly, as far as I can see, it’s all about cleanliness 🙂

Its also worth getting you tap water checked by your local aquatics place just to check that its not a problem with the incoming water. Are you using some sort of product to remove the chlorine etc before you add the new water to the tank.

How big is the tank, I always found tiger barbs could be pretty aggressive.

The other possibility is that the fish you are buying are in poor health, maybe try buying fish from another supplier they vary greatly. Some places are run like pet shops and staffed by minimum wage staff with little or no knowledge.

PP – its not about cleanliness, if anything the opposite!
Fishkeeping is about stability as fish have very plastic homeostatic mechanisms (they can survive in environments/ changes in environments that would kill other animals).
The commment about keeping the water not the fish is spot on: all of the tank is a filter not just the sponge/gravel. Microbial biofilms cover everything in the tank and the more you disrupt them the more work you’ll have to do to maintain a stable environment.
So don’t do large water changes especially if the tank is cycling – any waste metbolities from the fish are needed by the bacteria as food if you dilute them out you’ll slow the process. Also the toxicity of ammonia and to a lesser extent nitrite is pH dependent so if the large water changes aren’t done properly you can make the problem worse. See the OATA (google it) website for info on water quality recommendations as the pdf is very good.
Also don’t run a carbon filter all the time – only run for one week in four at most again you’ll decrease the efficiency of the filter and remove trace elements.
For the record Ich is a secondary infection so will have been caused by ammonia/nitrite peaks when the tank was cycling – rather than use expensive treatments, if the fish can take it turn up the temperature of the tank to 28 deg. C – the Ich trophonts (the infective bit) die.

Hi Guys

And thanks – been away for a few days!

I’ll reduce the changes to as described and get the water tested – current water temp is around 23-25 degs c. I was told the fish get aggressive above this!

This is what I have – the foreground fish – a cherry barb? Not a tetra barb!! doh!

Again thanks a lot guys and thanks for the replies

Magowen, to be fair I’ve done some homework and a lot if what you are saying there I’ve never seen mentioned before: about the carbon filter and ich especially. Like I said, mine is all nice and settled now on the advice of my LFS owner who has been fiskeeping for 30+ years….. 🙂

For the record the tank is about 60 litres and has a TETRA EASYCRYSTAL 300 AQUARIUM FILTER with carbon filter fitted – so I guess according to magowen I should only use this 1 week in 4? Is there alternative filters?

Cheers

I think you can just remove the black/grey filter sheet, leaving the other white and green bit in place. Personally I’d leave it in there.

If you have cherry barbs, they should really be kept in a group of at least 5 fish to stop them getting stressed.

Edited to add:

If you’re treating the tank with anti-itch stuff, you will need to remove the carbon filter.

I’ve done some homework and a lot if what you are saying there I’ve never seen mentioned before: about the carbon filter and ich especially

What he says is mostly accurate.

Here’s a good article on itch/whitespot

When fish get stressed, like when there’s an ammonia spike, their slime coat diminishes, and this allows the itch larva to get into the fish skin and transform into the whitespot parasite. Raising the temperature to about 30C will kill the free swimming larva.

As for the carbon filter, if you have a heavily planted tank, the filter will strip out fertilizer and some of the trace elements in the water, so it’s not advised to run a planted tank with carbon, but if your not adding fertilizer, and doing regular water changes, having the carbon filter in wont cause any problems.

PP – fishkeeping is like skinning a cat 101 ways…. :-)and as you can see everyone has different ideas on how it should be done. My comments to you were not to disprove what you’ve been told by the LFS more that large water changes are often seen as a cure all when if not properly can make the sitution worse (or at times its the problem itself).
Dan 1980 – Thanks for the vote of confidence. Though its a common misconception that the mucus coat decreases under stress. Dependent upon the stressor the mucus production by the secretory cells in the epithelium increases, however this causes the epithelium itslef to become ‘leaky’ allowing the parasite to internalise.
As for carbon filters you’re right its less of an issue in tanks without a heavy bioload but the same chemisty applies. Carbon filters are non selective adsorbtive media which can leach out all the ‘nasties’ that have been adsorbed once full. So while it won’t kill the fish leaving it in, if its on the main tank use for one week in four should be fine. Personally though I always treat incomming water with a carbon filter once a system is up and running but thats because I’m a skin-flint who doesn’t want to spend money unless I have to.
To the OP – cherry barbs aren’t hugely agressive or difficult so it’s more likley to be a water quality issue/ poor quality fish from your shop/ your acclimation of the fish to the new tank that casued the demise of the other animals.

Another vote in agreement with magowen, there’s really no point ‘scrubbing clean all the ornaments’, and in fact the stress to the fish caused by all the disturbances probably does them more harm.

Although a 10% weekly water change is an excellent idea imo……you might get the ammonia to break down into nitrite and then much less dangerous nitrate, but eventually you will get nitrates building up to unacceptable levels – there is absolutely no way that will have a sufficient amount of plants in a tiny body of water which constitutes an indoor aquarium, to preform the task that is required to remove the nitrates at the rate which it will be produced – you need a natural environment for that to happen, which amongst other things, has a completely different stocking levels to a home aquarium ! So weekly (or regular) water changes are necessary – nothing drastic though (unless there is an urgent crises of course)

“Tankslapper”….. Maybe there’s the problem right there, they don’t like it you know, scare’s them.

LOL @ colp 😀

Colp – LOL

VG 😆

macgowen – just to recap that’s no filter for three weeks? ❓

No – its only the carbon filter. The filter needs to be running constantly as the water flow provides the oxygen needed by the bacteria to break down the waste metabolites from the fish. If you have a separate carbon filter or a carbon insert in the filter take it out. If you don’t or aren’t sure what I mean don’t worry about it.
Have you checked all the water quality parameters –
pH, ammonia, nitrite,nitrate (is nice to know but not really that important), temperature?
Are you in a hard or soft water area? How do you treat your incomming water? What size is the tank?

Hi magowen

PH, Nitrites, ammonium (very low reading) all within the right levels Nitrates unacceptably high – water temp 26 degrees

I’ve removed the carbon filter and left the foam filter in situ.

Tank size about 60 litres

I’ve been reliably informed that the water here is really good for tropical fish being ph neutral

Nitrates unacceptably high

If your nitrate level is unacceptably high, then it suggests that you have been ignoring regular partial water changes – see my post above.

The solution is to carry out partial water changes until it comes down to an acceptable level. The problem is that if you just change a sensible amount like 10% of the water, it will take a very long time to reduce the nitrate level significantly – even your clean tap water will contain some nitrate (thanks in no small part to intensive farming methods in Britain)

So you will need to do it on a daily basis until you achieve the desirable level. If the nitrate level is so critical that it is causing serious problems for the fish, then more drastic action such as 20%-40% water change will be required.

But this is best avoided if possible, as large water changes can cause sudden changes in water chemistry, pH, conductivity, etc, which combined can put a lot of stress on the fish.

Have a look at this link to so see how the amount of water effects the percentage change of the nitrate level (it’s referring to a salt-water aquarium but the rules are the same)

http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/nitratecontrol/ss/sbsnitratereduction.htm

If you have been regularly carrying out partial water changes and you still have very high levels of nitrate then it suggests that you are overloading the system…….too high a stocking level of fish, or more likely in your case, overfeeding.

Overfeeding is by far the most common mistake with new fish keepers. Feed a couple of times a day no more than what can been eaten straight away – any morsel of food which manages to sink to the bottom of the aquarium without being eaten is a potential disaster. And some very greedy fish eat more than they actually need, causing the food to come out not fully digested. Don’t starve your fish, but don’t over feed them either, that is the art of fish keeping !

Edit : I’ve changed the link which was incorrect.

Hi ernie

I guess its the former – working away from home isn’t so great after all 😳

Carried out a 30% change yesterday and will do a further 10-20% change tomorrow before heading back to work (and do a further nitrate test) I’ve dumped the carbon filter and reverted back to the old manky foam one.

Doing some more reading into it I can’t believe just how much c**p is talked by pet shops and suppliers. A lot of guys on the net simply use foam filters until they are literally falling apart, rinsing them out in old discarded tank water once in a while.

Further recommendations for fish would be good. (once I’ve sorted out the tank issues!)

Cheers again guys really appreciate it

A lot of guys on the net simply use foam filters until they are literally falling apart, rinsing them out in old discarded tank water once in a while.

I don’t know what filtration system you’re using but my preferred choice would be an Eheim canister filter packed with a media which affords the largest possible area of surface for the nitrifying bacteria, such as Ehfisubstratpro. With obviously a mechanical pre-filter which can be easily cleaned.

Yes occasionally you need to rinse the filter media out in a bucket of warm aquarium water to flush out the build up of insoluble solids, although the mechanical pre-filter should deal with most of it. You can rinse out a pre-filter such as Ehfisynth Wool under a running tap but not the biological filter media – the cold chlorinated water will simply kill off the nitrifying bacteria.

I’m sure I don’t need to tell you not to have the filters switched off more than a few minutes, as the lack of fresh oxygenated water flowing through it will cause the bacteria to start to die off very quickly. But don’t worry too much if due to something like a power failure your filters are off for a prolong period, they won’t all die off and they will recover very quickly to reach their optimum levels again. It’s just that during that period the nitrogen cycle will have been interrupted. So keep an eye on things, maybe avoid feeding on that day, and carry out a partial water change.

As far as what fish, I don’t really know. My personal preference are Tanganyikians – no plants and gravel to worry about, just a tank full of rocks, and the fish are tough. But I guess that’s not really what you probably want. Try to choose fish which suit your water conditions, hard water – rift valley fish, livebearers such mollies, platies, swordtails etc, you can add a little kitchen salt in their water. Soft/acid water – tetras, gouramis, rasboras, etc.

As a very rough rule of thumb, fish from central America and African cichlids = hard water, fish from the Amazon and Asia = soft/acid water. Personally I think fish from a certain area such as the Amazon “look” more natural together – a gourami in that set up would look “wrong” to me. Of course plants are very susceptible to pH levels too – very few do well in hard water.

The reason why so many tropical fish and plants do well in soft/acid is no coincidence btw, many come from rivers which form part of the world’s tropical rainforests topography. Which results in vast amounts of organic material being washed by the rains into the rivers, the tannic acids and other substance this process releases, causes the water to become very soft/acid. It can also make the water very dark (blackwater) and combined with low levels of light caused by the canopy, can create a very dingy environment. Many fish specially shoaling fish, have evolved stunning iridescent colours to keep in contact with each other – which makes us want to keep them in our aquariums 🙂

Good advice from Ernie there.
If you have high nitrates then your filter is obviously working – the ammonia is being reduced to nitrite and then to nitrate. The only concern is that you don’t mention the pH of the tank – if you have high nitrates then that is normally associated with a low pH (due to high bioload). The only way of reducing nitrate is by dilution (water changes), BUT please make sure you do them carefully:
Remove however much you want 10/20/30% (but no more than 50% in one go unless it is an emergency). Make sure the inlet of the filter and the heater are below the water level or you’ll casue them to overheat.
For adding water use conditioned tapwater – either tap water you’ve treated with a conditioner (Aquasafe or similar) or aerate the water in the bucket overnight. If poosible bring the water up to the same temperature as the tank. If you don’t have a spare heater rely on room temperature (normally 19-21 deg. C) and use airline tubing with a knot/gang valve on the end to trickle water in over a few hours. In an ideal world you should check the pH of the incomming water and see how different it is to the tank water and either adjust using acid/alkali or increase the time taken to add water to the tank.
Its worth remembering that the pH scale is log: i.e pH 7 is ten times different to pH6 but 100X different to pH5. Which is why fishkeeping is about stability – very few animals can survive in environments 100x different to thier normal physiological requirements.
As for tankmates – the world is your oyster! Personally I would stick with a geographical area so Asia for cherry barbs but thats a personal choice. If you want easy to keep colourful fish check out the Australian rainbow fish (Melantonia/ Glossolepis sp.). Some are small enough for a 60 gal tank (not all though) and the majority are captive bred so tend to be hardier. For aquascaping inspiration have a look at
anything by Takashi Amano:

Good luck!
Matt

The only concern is that you don’t mention the pH of the tank – if you have high nitrates then that is normally associated with a low pH (due to high bioload).

The bioload will have very very little effect on the pH of the water. The pH of the water will be determined at its source, or whether you’ve put a buffer material in (e.g. pH buffer tabs, Coral sand, peat, almond leaves etc.)

The pH will determine what fish are most suitable for the tank, but pretty much every commonly available fish that is suitable for a 60L tank will cope with a range of pHs. (Dwarf Cichlids being the only ones off the top of my head that require an acidic pH)

You should always condition the water with something like tapsafe as it gets rid of stuff like chlorine that will harm the fish. Don’t spend loads though, the cheap stuff at pets at home does the same good as an expensive one containing all sorts of weird things.

Leaving a bucket of water airrating overnight will allow any CO2 dissolved to reach equilibria with the atmosphere, which is useful if you have a planted take to prevent CO2 spikes, but not needed otherwise. Just means you get lots of little bubbles for a while after you’ve added the water.

To the OP:
Before you start panicking about high nitrates, test your water that comes straight out of your tap. Some places have naturally high nitrates. I’ve lived in a place where the water is 50ppm out the tap, and successfully kept fish there. If you have high natural nitrates, it will limit the choice of fish, you can get stuff will reduce the amount, but it’s expensive.

Its worth remembering that the pH scale is log: i.e pH 7 is ten times different to pH6 but 100X different to pH5.

Yup, it’s a point which few people realise. I wanted to mention it but ’cause maths ain’t my strong point, I thought I’d leave it out 😀 Although how you explain it there sounds simple enough.

That’s a stunning aquarium there btw magowen, and utterly natural looking too. I think there is something totally magical about having a little piece of a tropical rainforest stream in your living room, specially when you live in a cold grim city.

But ffs don’t try and keep Discus fish Slapper ! 😯

Although you could have a go at Cardinals. Maybe try Neons first though.

The bioload will have very very little effect on the pH of the water.

Are you sure about that ? Intense activity by anaerobic bacteria (which you might expect under conditions of high bioload) will push up carbon dioxide levels – that will definitely affect the pH.

Matt, that tank looks amazing, any chance of a HQ copy for my desktop 😉

Is the base of the tank covered with a plant or is it gravel, hard to tell from the photo?

My last female Molly gave birth to 20 odd fry last night, my daughter spent half an hour fishing them out into a nursery tank.

Kids just love fish tanks……..

tankslapper – please keep us up to date on here, as to how your tank is getting on?

Is the base of the tank covered with a plant or is it gravel, hard to tell from the photo?

It’s probably pygmy amazon sword – Echinodorus tenellus

That would be in keeping with replicating an Amazonian aquarium, and it spreads like that (under the right conditions)

http://www.aquahobby.com/garden/e_tenellus.php

Thanks EL, it looks amazing though.

ernie_lynch – Member
The bioload will have very very little effect on the pH of the water.
Are you sure about that ? Intense activity by anaerobic bacteria (which you might expect under conditions of high bioload) will push up carbon dioxide levels – that will definitely affect the pH.

The majority of fish tanks do not have any anaerobic bacteria in them. You’d need a gravel layer approximately 6″ thick to provide enough surface area for nitrogen fixing bacteria to “filter” out the oxygen in the water. You’d need about half that depth of sand. Most people do not have that amount of substrate present.

Edited to add: Also, the vast majority of people who clean their tanks agitate their substrate when they clean off any debris from the surface, this has the affect of preventing any anaerobic bacteria to develop. Some people do get anaerobic bacteria in their substrate due to compression of the sand. This can result in Hydrogen sulphide build up, which when released will most likely kill the fish in the tank (and give an eggy smell to the water) through being toxic, and changing the pH of the water.

You’d need a gravel layer approximately 6″ thick to provide enough surface area for nitrogen fixing bacteria to “filter” out the oxygen in the water.

You can also get anaerobic bacteria build up in a very dirty (canister) filter which is so clogged up that it is reduced to a trickle. Anaerobic bacteria are always going to exist in any well established aquarium, it just needs conditions to change slightly for anaerobic bacterial activity to kick in significantly – leaving the filters switched off for a few hours will do it in the filter media or substrata. And anything which depletes the water of oxygen (excessive bioload, dead fishes, etc) Even with reasonably flowing water, if the substrata is made of material which can support very large amounts bacteria, and there is significant loading due to overfeeding, a dead fish, etc, then I reckon all the oxygen risks being depleted from the water before it has completely passed through the substrate ……imo