oh, and Elfin – nice Fitch

Uh? 😕

Don’t understand that. 🙁

Polecat coloured ferret – known as a fitch ferret in dvon & Cornwall (and elsewhere AFAIK)

Oh right. It’s not mine sadly. Belongs to WCA’s grandson. Podiumed at a ferret show in the New Forest. 🙂

With regards to the numbers in the Highlands TJ I think the winter last year will have helped. We rode through Glen Tilt towards Braemar in May this year and there were lots of carcasses about. The ones we couldn’t see, we could smell!

Right, this is interesting. I’ve spoken to my Father in Law at length about deer hunting in the USA, but I’ve got no idea how it works here. There, you are only allowed to shoot deer in the season which is about two weeks in November ish. Actually, there are various seasons for different types of shooting/hunting, so it’s more like 4-6 weeks in total I think including bow etc.

It’s all very tightly managed (in Wisconsin at least) and they only allow certain numbers of deer to be shot, and you also some years have to shoot a doe before you can shoot a buck, since they are trying hard to control numbers.

So how does it work in the UK? Are you allowed to shoot them any time of year?

Podiumed at a ferret show in the New Forest

For using the noun ‘podium’ as a verb, you deserve to have the beast put down your trousers.

However, I feel that you may only enjoy the experience.

Molgrips I think you’ll find they are managed in a similar way in the uk too. It’s all to do with when the females are pregnant, other mating, breeding and growing concerns and such like. Anyone who hunts has to know all about this. (I use my Linux calender program to tell me when I can hit the woods)

UK hunting seasons.

Not aimed at you directly molgrips, but this discussion is a great illustration of I love about STW is the way people wade into all kinds of arguments in a knee jerk fashion when they really don’t know shit about what they are talking about.

So lookin at that page, it looks like in England you can shoot stags when they are useless (ie spring) but you can’t shoot them when they are needed to fertilise does. But in Scotland you can merrily plug them when they are in the middle of doing their thing. Seems odd..?

If folk are saying it’s poor show to shoot stags during the rut, then why’s the Scottish season in the autumn?

And this stag being shot in England means it was illegal, no?

I did briefly wonder about getting my father in law some hunting time as a gift next time he is over since he was very surprised when I told him it went on here.

Nope red stags aug 30th to april 30th – that means throught the winter…
I think (although I’m not sure if I’m right, I’ll just check with my resident deer expert) the reason why killing males in the rut is ok is that one male mates with many females, so lots of males are redundant. So if you kill one, there are loads of other males just waiting for a chance at the goodies..

It’s not like they fall in love and pair off for life, Bambi was after all just a childs story..

Yah but people were criticising this anonymous hunter for shooting during the rut no?

molgrips – Member

Yah but people were criticising this anonymous hunter for shooting during the rut no?

I refer you to this post below that I made earlier.

this discussion is a great illustration of I love about STW is the way people wade into all kinds of arguments in a knee jerk fashion when they really don’t know shit about what they are talking about.

As I recall, the primary reason for the different close season in Scotland was to protect the deer from over-culling, since the behaviour of deer in the highlands is quite different, and the close season is designed to coincide with the deer starting to come off the hill into the woods and valleys as the weather worsens – so, farmers and foresters in the valley bottoms were likely to cull very heavily if the season was still open (there are additional specific conditions in Scottish law to cull out of season to protect crops on enclosed land) – this is not the same problem in the South where the deer tend to roam over smaller area.

Regards the morals of shooting in the Rut – sorry, but regards culling males, I do not think anything matters as long as the shot is clean and humane. Regards females, I think the close seasons are vitally important to prevent orphaning or culling of pregnant animals, and having had to do this with muntjac (which can be pregnant at any time of year, so no close season) I can tell you its not particularly nice!

In the case of this beast, I stand by my original point, that without knowing the herd well, its difficult to challenge the man on the ground’s decision to cull, but whats clear to me is that its widely agreed that this animal had been dominant for at least a couple of years – One large, dominant stag. Huge numbers of offspring. Is it good for the health of the herd for ‘the Emperor’ to be **** his daughters and granddaughters-that-are-daughters-as-well?

If there were no possibility of getting some income from the red deer that take great amounts of forage and crops, there would be no deer management – they would be treated as pests and virtually wiped out.

The only decision I could criticise (if it has indeed happened as there is no sign of the body or photos to prove) was the one to allegedly leave the carcass, which has resulted in millions of chavs up and down the land bursting in to tears on their sofas, even as they stuff their bloated, halfwitted faces with factory-farmed chicken **** nuggets.

when they really don’t know shit about what they are talking about.

Having only ever (occasionally) shot pheasants, rabbits etc, I would be the first to profess my ignorance about deer stalking. I was genuinely surprised that stags would be shot during the rut.

Anyway – nugget-faced chavs aside – I don’t think anybody here has a problem with culling deer. And as Z-11 says, once an individual is selected, it doesn’t matter who pulls the trigger. Hopefully they’ll inject some much needed cash into the rural economy by doing so.

But I suspect somebody wanted/wants this chap stuffed and mounted – and I despise that kind of thing, tbh. Much in the way that I despise industrial-scale pheasant shoots.

Z-11 plus 1 well said..

Good article in The Grauniad, if can you bear to read it, Z-11. 😀

The points stands, imo. Deer management in the absence of a natural predator is essential. Trophy-hunting ain’t necessarily the same thing (although it may form a valuable economic component, in game reserve fashion) – and you don’t have to be some kind of nugget bloated sofa surfer or Islington yogurt weaver to find it objectionable. As a Somerset native, I have far, far more respect for the likes of Henry Williamson (political views aside) than I do for big money ego gunners.

I suppose the true Irony there noteeth is that this greed and clamour for trophies in the south west didn’t exist before the Guardianistas had the hunting banned… Law of unintended consequences and all that!

Taking stags for their trophy value isnt wrong, its simple economics, the deer will have a life span barring accidents of say 12 to 20 years, during that life he may or may not cover hinds depending upon his position in the herd. Should an exceptional stag get culled then No2 moves in and the gene pool is widened, often not before many of his progeny are produced.

A stag at his peak may cover 30 plus hinds a day. Now tell me why he shouldnt be shot, if he is taken from the gene pool at any time its money to ensure the estate can continue to function, the stalkers stay locally and spend their money, well, locally!

Now whether or not the top beast is taken doesnt really matter, the UK is too small a place for the gene pool to be diuted adversely by taking an animal out, but certainly small enough for inbreeding to be a problem, hence my earlier comment over shagging his own daughters.

C_G and I spent a lovely morning today walking round the Red deer herd at Woburn – sorry, but you could not tell me that taking out any particular one of the dominant animals would leave any lack of potential to fill the gap, no shortage of fantastic beasts that would make a replacement for the master stag who was roaring around with thirty hinds in tow.

Thanks to Zulu-Eleven for a terrific day and for sharing his knowledge. 🙂

I have never seen so many species of deer in one day, let alone many I had not seen before.

Enjoy these beautiful and not so beautiful creatures – to see and hear those roaring stags is a sight to behold. 8)

But I see that in today’s Times, there is a two page spread on the story. Will we ever hear the truth?

Thanks to Zulu-Eleven for a terrific day.

STW stalking… Good stuff.

Taking stags for their trophy value isnt wrong, its simple economics

I’m not really disagreeing with you (and certainly not as regards the stock gene pool). I suppose I just find the trophy side rather distasteful – as opposed to killing for the sake of utility (meat) or herd management. But I accept that it amounts to much the same end, if properly controlled. Mind you, North Devon/Somerset ain’t Scotland…

Will we ever hear the truth?

Not whilst rumours sell newspapers – I mean, I often see the supposedly-extinct Megaloceros giganteus roaming around Mendip. 😉

C_G and I spent a lovely morning today walking round the Red deer herd at Woburn – sorry, but you could not tell me that taking out any particular one of the dominant animals would leave any lack of potential to fill the gap, no shortage of fantastic beasts that would make a replacement for the master stag who was roaring around with thirty hinds in tow.

I am in no way questioning your wealth of knowledge and experience on this subject.. you speak very assuredly.. but surely you have to acknowledge that Woburn and Exmoor are startlingly different habitats..

As a complete layman I’m just questioning whether or not this would factor into the debate in an enormous way..?

Zulu does have decent knowledge on this however his viewpoint is the hunters viewpoint. A conservation viewpoint might be different

Deer need to be culled – of this there is no doubt. Selling the rights to shoot the deer to bring income is not the worst idea. However I would question the assertion

the UK is too small a place for the gene pool to be diluted adversely by taking an animal out,

The best policy will vary area to area and with the breed of deer.

I am under the understanding its best to take out the females so as to reduce the numbers of young rather than taking out the best genes out of the pool. However a young female makes a poor trophy if good eating. Teh older stag will be fairly well inedible I would have thought.

I am in no way questioning your wealth of knowledge and experience on this subject.. you speak very assuredly.. but surely you have to acknowledge that Woburn and Exmoor are startlingly different habitats..

As a complete layman I’m just questioning whether or not this would factor into the debate in an enormous way..?

My reference is more a comment regards general red herd dynamics – in both a park and the wild – if you take out one, theres always another nearby to fill his place, the whole development/concept of the rut is that there is always a challenger nearby and the males have to compete with each other for the “attention of the ladies”

I am under the understanding its best to take out the females so as to reduce the numbers of young rather than taking out the best genes out of the pool. However a young female makes a poor trophy if good eating. Teh older stag will be fairly well inedible I would have thought.

The female cull is the one really important for “long term population control” but the male cull also has its reasons, for example to minimise tree damage from fraying (males cleaning the velvet off their antlers) so, yes, it depends on species, time of year, location and management priorities. Culling the “best” genes in the pool again depends on the individual herd dynamic, as I suggested here regards inbreeding, equally however if that nice stag is trashing your crops by holding his hinds in your fields then you may well thing, bollocks to that, I want rid!

At the same time, the research from Rum showed that one side effect of heavy red hind culling was an increase in mature males, so if you’re interested in trophy animals, then you need to cull the hinds to maximise your production and revenues…

Also worth remembering that the Stag cull in the highlands effectively pays for the hind cull, whilst a day stag shooting may cost you upwards of £400 plus (very significant) trophy fees, a day hind culling starts at about £80, but there are stalkers and ghillies employed all year round taking hinds in big numbers and their wages are pretty much paid for by Stag season – Hind culling is often bloody hard graft in shitty weather, which is another reason its not as popular. Get rid of the trophy element, and you may well lose the revenues that pay for hind culling, which would probably have a very detrimental impact on conservation in general.

There are just so many variables – for example, counter intuitively the latest thinking in Muntjac is to cull the males heavily, as there appears to be a mechanism whereby they self regulate the sex of their offspring to make up for a shortfall, so a heavy male cull means more males being born, resulting in a reduction in population in the medium term – another example would be that for Roe management in forestry its common to take out the dominant buck so that you can keep getting other bucks into your deer management glades, if you let a buck dominate the glade, then you keep all the others out, and if your priority is tree protection, then that may outweigh the balance of keeping a valuable buck alive for a trophy fee.

A conservation viewpoint might be different

I think most people on both sides would agree on the ideal being “to balance deer populations against other land management priorities, as far as possible preventing detrimental impact on other species or habitats”

I thought the culling during the rutting season was so that the ‘hunters’ could see all the males together?

Well, b r, you know what thought did… 😉

The simple fact that red deer spend pretty much all year except the rut in separate sex herds would point away from that…

I think most people on both sides would agree on the ideal being “to balance deer populations against other land management priorities, as far as possible preventing detrimental impact on other species or habitats”

If they did that in Scotland there would be 1/10th as many deer or less. They really are vermin up here and very destructive to teh land

I think you’ve been reading your RSPB propaganda again TJ…

DCS, the Deer Commission for Scotland, set cull rates for Estates, and if they don’t cull enough send in teams to do the job, they set cull rates on pretty good scientific data and really are quite harsh in ensuring it takes place.

Unfortunately, certain organisations have the attitude that the only good deer is a dead one, and would happily have the lot slaughtered to further their own agenda’s!

Secondly, there is nothing natural about the environment that our deer currently find themselves forced to live in – they have been denied access to thousands of acres of their traditional wintering grounds over the years by blanket afforestation, fencing and ill thought out, grant incentived native woodland schemes.

The result of this has been animals overgrazing what little food they can get, especially in winter, and causing the damage you describe.

You cannot deny deer access to important ground and just expect them to get on with it, As my physics teacher used to say – for every ACTION there is a REACTION.

Many deer have died whilst naturally seeking traditional shelter that they have used for centuries, only to come up against a fenced swathe of ground that they can neither get round nor penetrate.

Fencing huge areas off simply perpetuates the problem, “look, this is what happens if you don’t fence, the deer trash it, so we’ll fence even more” take down the fences and the damage becomes much less intense and the forests recover can from a sustainable low level of winter damage, as it is, we’ve got swathes of fenced land so all the deer are pushed into whats left.

It is not the point that deer are a survivor (because they are) and it is not the point that things will be better for the deer in 20 or so years when a lot of the fences come down (because it will). The point is that we should be showing our largest, iconic (and in some areas most valueable to the local economy) land mammal a hell of a lot more thought and respect, not just thoughtlessly fencing them out and leaving them to starve in winter, nor just slaughtering them because we’ve taken away their traditional grounds and then blame them for trashing the little we’ve left them.

Zulu – its from decades of walking in the hills and seeing the damage they do. Take Glen feshie as an example – there is hardly a tree under 200 yrs old there because of the deer that eat everything.

Take Ben Alder – they feed the deer thru the winter so there is an unsustailable large population. – the area where thery feed them is an eroded mess and there is massive deforestation and erosion.

There are other glens that have been heavily culled – there the forest is regenerating. forest and deer are compatible – but not at the deer densities that exist now. The densities need to be much much lower for sustainablitily adn biodiversity
]
It is very easy to see the estates that are managed for deer stalking and compare them to the estates managed for conservation and biodiversity. The deer stalking estates are eroded with no natural forest

Still – the conservationists are winning this argument – there is much more forest ( not plantation) that there was 20 yrs ago as a result of culling and excluding deer.

Once the forests have been reastablished the deer numbers could be allowed to grow but not to the current numbers.

Yo are right there is nothing natural about the habitat. Its deforested by grazing – firstly by sheep and now by deer.

Its very differnt from the situation in England.

Ecological relationships of red deer

Red deer are an integral part of the Caledonian Forest and other upland ecosystems in Scotland. Being such a large mammal, they have a profound effect upon the habitat in which they live, especially where they are found in large numbers. Deer density varies from less than one deer per square kilometre to over 40 in some areas of Scotland, such as Glencripesdale in north Argyll. In the 1950s, Sir Frank Fraser Darling reckoned that an average of five deer per square kilometre would ensure spontaneous forest regeneration and this figure has by and large been proved correct, although local conditions, including soil quality, the number of tree seedlings on the site, or the presence of other grazing animals such as sheep, can affect it.

Where deer numbers are high, they have a significant impact on vegetation, and will prevent the natural regeneration of both the trees and the ground flora in native woodland. Even less preferred tree species, such as Scots pine(Pinus sylvestris), birch (Betula spp.) and juniper (Juniperus communis), are unable to regenerate at all, if the deer density is too high. Fenced exclosures, such as that at Coille Ruigh in Glen Affric, provide a powerful example of how vegetation growth is suppressed by excessive numbers of deer – since the fence was erected in 1990, it is not only the young trees which have been able to grow again successfully and in abundance, but also other native flora such as creeping ladies tresses orchids (Goodyera repens), and bog myrtle (Myrica gale).

At lower numbers, however, deer have a beneficial influence on the forest ecosystem. For example, the trampling of their hooves can help to expose the soil, thereby providing suitable germination sites for the seeds of Scots pine, and grazing can help to maintain a greater diversity of plant species. Red deer can also play a significant role in maintaining open habitat. This is one of the important ecosystems of the uplands in Northern Scotland as it supports rare species such as the golden plover (Pluvialis apricaria) and dunlin (Calidris alpina).

http://www.treesforlife.org.uk/tfl.reddeer.html

Marc Albrighton… is this an essay writing contest or something?

Can anyone care to summarise please?

TJ, far from me to oppose culls of deer, but the stuff you’ve posted above doesn’t really support your assertion that

“If they did that in Scotland there would be 1/10th as many deer or less. They really are vermin up here and very destructive to teh land”

– in fact it says that densities vary massively!

There are localised problems with very high populations (you used the Example of Glen feshie, I’m sure you’ll be aware of the extremity of the cull the DCS did there a few years ago, with some question on the legality of their use of Helicopters) There are a great many other areas where the deer are well managed and sustainable populations, and there are a great many areas where the fencing has **** it for everyone.

All I have to say about this thread is

Mmm, venison.

Lost my post.
There are many areas where the deer density is too high – its obvious on teh ground from the lack of young trees. Its not just a few localised areas

I prefer massive culling to fencing – clear deer out of glens completely to allow the forest to recover – this appraoch is being tried in one area now. it looks like it migh work – the deer population will recover as the tress do – and once there are more tress more deer can be sustainedbbut the dseer have to go tyo allow the forest to recover.

Take Ben Alder – they feed the deer thru the winter so there is an unsustailable large population. – the area where thery feed them is an eroded mess and there is massive deforestation and erosion

Why do they feed them? And who are ‘they’?

Many years ago, I went on a silly o’clock deer watch led by an FC Ranger. He said that on the Hampshire/Sussex border, the annual cull rate for roe was 50%.

CG -teh estaet owners to create a large population so they can shoot more and in part a deer stalking estate is valued on how many head of deer – although the lot that own ben alder as so rich I can’t believe they consider that. Possibly a misplaced sense of what is right as well – if they don’t feed them the weaker deer die in the winter.

From a pro stalking website

Deer stalking should not be just about the kill. It must be part of the land management plan which is aimed at reducing the near-chronic over population of red deer in Scotland, as well as the growing population of roe deer. This website aims to promote responsible and sustainable organisers of deer stalking in Scotland, and will help you organise a deer stalking trip or vacation to Scotland.

http://www.deerstalkingscotland.co.uk/

And it is complicated because one person’s “magnificent creature” is another person’s overpopulated pest, which causes many road accidents, and which damages woodland, forestry, agriculture and habitats of great importance to other species. And when those calling for an increase in the culling of Red Deer include conservation bodies like WWF and the RSPB, it becomes clear just how very complex the situation really is.

http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/usscotfax/outdoors/accessstalking.html

Or maybe because the deer no longer have access to their traditional over-wintering grounds TJ…

Tell you what, if you want to have intelligent discussion, I’m all up for it TJ – but just cutting and pasting random choice quotes off the net with partial contex that you think supports your argument isn’t that!

I’ve taken time and care to explain my position and just a few of the factors behind the complexity of deer management with a number of variables, If you cannot make the arguments yourself, don’t bother!

Just checked out TJ’s deerstalking link where they are claiming that roe numbers have exceeded those of red. Is this true or just marketing tosh?

Zulu

I have – you didn’t believe it. Its nothing to do with being denied access to the overwintering grounds or to do with fencing. Its not even the overpopulation of deer that caused the deforestation – that was man for sheep grazing. However the trees can’t regenerate until deep population density is reduced dramatically unless fencing is used.

There is usustainably high deer populations in much of the highlands – everyone involved in land management in Scotland knows this. I gave you three different types of sources, a forest conservation group, the land access groups and a stalking group – all state the overpopulation. I gave you the sources so you can check the context. All the conservation groups that understand the issues ( not the fluffy save the animals ones) understand the need for reduction in deer numbers.

You assert stuff that shows your ignorance with no evidence. It is not just a localised issue. It is right across the country. You have stated stuff that you clearly know about in England and I wouldn’t try to contradict you because I only know enough to know that its a very different situation from England – but your ignorance of the issues in Scotland are clear if you think the overpopulation of deer is a small localised issue.

When yo go out into teh mountains the damage teh deer overpopulation does is clear and obvious

You assert stuff that shows your ignorance with no evidence. It is not just a localised issue. It is right across the country

Really, so, overpopulation of Red deer in the Borders is a problem is it? See, you shoot your own argument in the foot with rhetoric that bears no connection to reality. Red deer are not even present “right across the country”

much of the highlands

hang on, a second ago it was everywhere, now its “much of the highlands”?

When yo go out into teh mountains the damage teh deer overpopulation does is clear and obvious

TJ, could you look at a browsed tree and tell if the damage was done by a feral goat, a deer or a hare? Until you can, don’t try and teach your grandmother to suck eggs 🙄

I’m more than aware of the situation in the highlands! The problem for you TJ, is that estates do not set their own cull levels, so your assertion that deer stalking estates are overpopulated and overgrazed do not ring true simply because they’re not allowed to set their own numbers

The DCS, a statutory body guided by SNH set the cull levels – I’d suggest that they might know just a little more about deer management that the great omnipotent TandemJeremy

Zulu. Everyone involved in land management in Scotland apart from some shooting estates know there is a massive overpopulation of deer. It is obvious when you are out on the land.

As you have reverted to blind defence of your untenable position I shall leave you to it. There is no point in debating with you. You have no evidence to back your assertions

THe DCS is no more

Yousneed to read the SNH documents on Deer.

Nice straw man arguement from you – distorting waht I have asid and plainly inventing stuff.

Just accept your ignorance on the situation in Scotland because it is painfully clear.

Simon Milne, SWT’s Chief Executive, explained: “We are a wildlife protection charity calling for more deer to be culled. I understand that this might surprise some people, but our reasoning is sound. Red deer numbers have been steadily increasing in recent decades to the point where, in some areas, they are causing damage to the natural environment. The most obvious impact is on young trees that have little chance of growing into the forests of future when large numbers of deer are browsing for food.

http://www.swt.org.uk/news/deer-cull-should-continue-says-scottish-wildlife-trust/

“There is no quick fix to this problem, in fact it will take decades to achieve a balanced deer population. Deer numbers must be reduced in many areas to a sustainable level which is a difficult, time consuming and expensive business. The regeneration of our native highland woodland is a priority and requires a massive, sustained and long term effort to achieve; then we might start to see red deer living as they are meant to, as healthy forest animals. The SWT hopes these are problems which will be addressed in the forthcoming Wildlife and Natural Environment Bill.”

Deer populations in Scotland have reached an unsustainably high level due to the absence of any natural predators. Scotland is home to two native deer species, the red deer and the roe deer. Together it is thought there are over 350,000 deer inhabiting Scotland today, around twice the population of half a century ago.