i dont know if i asked this before, but, tubular tyres on a turbo trainer, taper on with Janex stuff,

is this ok?

not bother if it wears out the tyre quicker, read something about some tubs being a rubber belt and delaminating as it where (Vittoria)

seen plenty of TDF riders on a turbo prior to departing

whats the crack?

also, did Rubber Glove, suggestion was to bump FTP from 310 to 418 and LTH from 162 to 172

Tacx Satori, Level 5, Virtual Power using Speed/Cadence

http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/887573-Sufferfest-Rubber-Glove

310w to 418w? Wow…thats some jump and thats a pretty hugh FTP anyway.

Looking at your workout (although I’m no expert)…a IF of 0.83 and a TSS of 63 for a 1 hour FTP test seems pretty low. I’d suggest either a problem with your settings or you should be a pretty handy Elite/Cat1 racer

Well, I’ve definitely seen the benefits of a first winter on the turbo with Trainerroad.

Last summer, I took up XC racing for the first time, in the NE MTB series. I improved through the season, although was still propping up the back of the field with the grand-vets and singlespeeders. So I signed up to TR in November and have completed both Sweet Spot base plans and most of the low volume MTB plan.

The series restarted this Saturday, and we did a 90 min (ish) race round Hamsterley. My average speed last season was 6mph over a 60 minute course very similar to Saturday’s ( 😳 ) – it was 9mph over 90 mins on Saturday. Plus, this year, there were other girls to beat as well as the singlespeeders (which I did, yay!).

I’m never going to be a contender for the Olympics, but I definitely feel a lot fitter!

Looking at your workout (although I’m no expert)…a IF of 0.83 and a TSS of 63 for a 1 hour FTP test seems pretty low. I’d suggest either a problem with your settings or you should be a pretty handy Elite/Cat1 racer

IF and TSS will be low because of the amount of time below the original FTP of 310 no? – the only above FTP bit is the 20 minute “test” – unless ive missed something? doesnt even get anywhere near original FTP for 30 minutes?

test was exactly the same setup ive being running, cassette/wheel/bike/HRM/ etc etc, id like to know what went wrong

i did Angels at the suggested FTP a week later, the last “climb” was hard because of the nature of the attacks, i was pushing in 53/12 or 11 for most of it, and buried myself for the last attack, hence the cadence at 130ish

http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/902825-Sufferfest-Angels

and here is my original test

http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/701363-20-Minute-Test

400W+ FTP is certainly very, very high. You’re about 10% quicker on the flat over an hour the Oli Beckensale if we believe the numbers. He’s about 2/3 your weight though so it’s be a different story on the hills 😀 4.35W/kg is certainly very handy although I suspect the virtual power wouldn’t necessarily tie up to real power for the set up if you could record both at the same time.

The jump up from 310W FTP is the strange thing though and takes in to account any offset against real power, as is the ability to complete the latest session with the 418W FTP setting. The most likely answer is the turbo is set at a lower resistance setting than the software but that is almost too obvious 😕 Do you have the speed data to compare this latest 20 minute test to the ~300W FTP one? Are you riding 25% faster for the same resistance setting for example?

speed data

Test 1: Avg 39.3kph during the test

http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y394/dansipods2/ScreenShot2014-04-22at055421_zpsf14a032d.png

Test 2: Avg 51.1kph during the test

http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y394/dansipods2/ScreenShot2014-04-22at055805_zpsad409eda.png

And as a real world piece of data (ignore the HRM data, it was being buggy and was not even turned on for this part of the ride) this is a 24km segment, flat as a pancake, slight back/side wind

http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y394/dansipods2/ScreenShot2014-04-22at060222_zpsa9a2f612.png

So to follow on the theme of Dirty Rider’s question… assuming more rides will be outside over the Spring and Summer, what would be the one main Turbo session you’d be looking to maintain?

Something LTT or VO2 Max based seems to make sense since these are the hardest to control or maintain for extended periods outside. More Endurance based rides are more easily achieved outside and anaerobic stuff is so short it is easy to fit in to outdoor rides too. Does that sound fair?

Interesting to see Ant White appears to like what appears to be a combined VO2 Max/ LTT session as the go to turbo session which fits with my thinking above.

I’d be interested to know this as well. I’m on a 6 week break before the next training cycle so if I’m forced indoors by weather or time I’ve chose to alternate between Gray (traditional 2×20) and Ian Campbell which had sprint intervals for vo2 max and anaerobic and over-unders for threshold.

Plus, this year, there were other girls to beat as well as the singlespeeders (which I did, yay!).

I’m never going to be a contender for the Olympics, but I definitely feel a lot fitter!

Great going Legolam! I’m firmly in the “never will be properly fast” camp too but it’s incredibly rewarding to see how much difference a bit of thought in the preparation to races can make 😀

I’ve chose to alternate between Gray (traditional 2×20) and Ian Campbell which had sprint intervals for vo2 max and anaerobic and over-unders for threshold.

Ian Campbell looks like a good session to keep the legs fast and fresh, cheers for the heads up. Are there similar combined VO2 Max/ LTT sessions on TR, they can be quite hard to find…

Can anyone point me to a pre made 2×20 under over session too? I like the idea of under overs for where I’m at at the moment but putting that in to the search doesn’t give any hits.

speed data

No idea what is going on dirtyrider! I’d have thought 310W FTP to 418W FTP is not physiologically possible in 2 months as that’s a big jump from already high numbers. Even if the numbers are really, really wrong then 25% improvement in 8 weeks also seems at the high end of plausible 😕

Has the wheel circumference setting changed or been incorrectly set in TR? If you did the TR update then this goes back to a default as far as I know so it might have been incorrect since the update. TR seems to use this measurement to calculate speed as when I have it set incorrectly the speed TR displays is different from the speed my Garmin displays (which presumably holds on to the the calibrated wheel circumference taken outside with the same tyre, where the TR wheel circumference has defaulted to an incorrect value).

I think I clearly didn’t push enough in the first test, I can replicate the speed of the first test outdoors over 40 minutes instead of the 20 indoors on the trainer

I’m going to check everything tonight, and change the trainer level to 7 and the satori powertap 7 as apparently it’s a better match for real world power – don’t particularly want to do another FTP test so ill do a workout with the 418 FTP – probably Angels again and see what happens

Check the wheel circumference setting in TR against you tyre’s actual circumference.

If you do have a true 418W FTP then you should be racing Elite XC (if you are already not doing it) 😀

Will do that cheers DanW – like you said, my weight kills me in the hills 🙁

Ian Campbell looks like a good session to keep the legs fast and fresh, cheers for the heads up. Are there similar combined VO2 Max/ LTT sessions on TR, they can be quite hard to find…

Can anyone point me to a pre made 2×20 under over session too? I like the idea of under overs for where I’m at at the moment but putting that in to the search doesn’t give any hits.

I’m no expert but I found mine after using the “workout” menu option and clicking the “threshold” button on the left to filter the workouts.

I’ve taken a lot of advice else where about raising my FTP in General which results in threshold workouts mainly, plus vo2 max/anaerobic to keep your legs awake if your riding crits (which I am once a week).

That’s how I’ve been searching too Kryton and out of the 157 LTT sessions I can’t see 2×20 under overs. Only looking as they were suggested by an experienced XC racer on another forum as more effective as raising FTP (with other sessions of course) than a standard 2×20 session. 3×12 minute under overs is the closest I can find (Scylla)… The custom session option in TR is so easy to use I’ll probably just do that 😀

wheel circ was 2070 – not 2096

right, adjusted wheel circ, and changed the trainer to level 7 – double checked there was a difference in resistance throughout the range, which there was, changed trainerroad to Satori Powertap 7 based on this

http://support.trainerroad.com/entries/21382775-Tacx-Satori

started Angels at 418 FTP – was hard, i could have completed the over unders, but would not have been able to complete the “hills” in my opinion

http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/915348-Sufferfest-Angels

manually changed the FTP to 350, and restarted Angels, completed the overs/unders, and completed the first hill, pretty certain i could have complete the other 2, however i didnt complete the session as id spanked myself on the 418 Session

here is the 2nd Session

http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/915432-Sufferfest-Angels

pushed hard at the end of the first hill, power spike drop was when i stood up

So the wheel circumference setting was the culprit 😀

Sounds like your FTP is around 310W + approximately 5-10% which is a sensible progression. I guess another fun FTP test is on the cards to double check 😀

Even 310w is a pretty impressive FTP in my opinion

I did a custom workout last night where I basically put one of the workouts from ‘Training and Racing with a Power Meter’ into Trainerroad. 15min WU at 175w then 10min @ 98% FTP (265w), 10min @175w, 20min @ 105% FTP (282w). After that it was straight into 10 x 20sec at >135% FTP with 2min rest intervals. 10min Cool down

It was doable but I was a bit moist afterwards

I’ve never managed to complete Angles using TrainerRoad’s FTP values, it’s the only Sufferfest film I can’t do.

Good to see an improvement dirtyrider, anything over 4W/kg is pretty decent if you’ve a job/family IMO.

I just turned it back on today, the missus is using it too.

I chucked in an old FTP value that I was using a while back and it nearly killed me. Had to give up half way through. I think I’ll be doing another 8 minute test this week and hitting reset before starting the MTB plan.

dont’t make me do another FTP test 🙁

Jeez – gas hurst and dirty rider. I’m amazed at hose FTP numbers are they virtual power or real power? I did Gray – 2×20 at 183w virtual power last nigh and I was as moist as gazhurst. It was the second time I’ve done it and much more doable than the first time two weeks ago, my main problem have the focus to complete 20 minutes at Ftp!

Kryton, given the racing and training you do, that does seem a little low. If you are competitive at cat 4 then I’d expect you to be a little higher unless you are a featherweight (check this.) Having said that I think there’s quite a bit of scope for virtual power readings to vary from setup to setup.

I’ve quite a detailed thread on bikeradar re this so I won’t repeat. But according to coggans chart I’m 3.57 2/kg over 5 mins.

I’ve never done a regimented 5 min balls out interval though, and that’s all measures in the mancave on a turbo trainer with virtual power. Every single race average has been well over a “ride” average. I’m average about 220-240 average over the hour.

Vis a vis it’s not accurate, only suitable for the TR purpose in the conditions within which I’m using it.

that’s all measures in the mancave on a turbo trainer

my main problem have the focus to complete 20 minutes at Ftp!

Reckon churning away at the turbo in the man cave really is as much a mental exercise as a physical one. Been mentally really tired recently (new baby, major lack of sleep) and it’s been mostly impossible to do a hard turbo session. The legs are ok but the head frustratingly gives up as soon as it gets hard. Motivation is very different on the road if, say you’re half way up a hill, as opposed to halfway through following a line on a graph on a computer screen in a sweaty man cave. Getting better as sleep improves thankfully.

Anyway getting back to what this thread is meant to be about… interesting workouts. Did Cartwright a couple of weeks ago. 60 mins, 4x10min intervals. Each starts a little below FTP then about halfway through the interval it gradually ramps up to about 110% FTP. I enjoyed it. Approved!

Oh and…

I’ve quite a detailed thread on bikeradar

Bikeradar too? Given your volume of posting on here I’m surprised you have the time 😉

I’ve only posted on bikeradar twice, ever. But good point I need to ween myself off of forums. 🙁

I would be very wary of using Virtual Power as a benchmark for comparison against other people. Comparing virtual to my Powertap was way out – my actual FTP (measured by a calibrated Powertap using Rubber Glove) is 304W. My Virtual Power FTP would need to be around 410W for the same effort.

I’m not saying that you shouldn’t use VP as a benchmark for yourself, just that differences in tyre pressure, wheel diameter, and wheel tension can give wildly different results.

For the record – I’m an Expert category MTBer and weigh 72kgs.

I’m not saying that you shouldn’t use VP as a benchmark for yourself, just that differences in tyre pressure, wheel diameter, and wheel tension can give wildly different results.

I think I’ve said this before, but that’s what I found too when I had a play with virtual power. Lots of variables. Even how warmed up the turbo is makes a difference. You can eliminate a lot of variables but it would be a faff compared to just using a proper power metre. Having said that, on my turbo (a minoura vr760) with careful setup it was never more than about 20 watts out of what my powertap was reading… but then on some efforts 20 watts can make it a big difference! Though as it’s based on wheel speed generally with a big flywheel, it doesn’t track small variations in effort that well.

Unless you’ve had it properly measured in a lab then it’s not a valid basis for comparison. The field tests are just rough estimations (you’ll probably get different values from an 8 min test and a 20 min test, and you do just get better at doing them without there being any real change in your FTP.) And even with a proper power meter you’d get different values from, say, one at the crank to one at the back wheel.

Having said that it is still a great way to measure where you’re at compared with past efforts and to set goals for the turbo. Was reading Faster by Michael Hutchinson and he said that the greatest moment of his cycling career wasn’t any race result, but hitting a certain value in a VO2 max test in the lab!

I treat the VP readings simply as a mark on a stick, not comparing too pro’s or others but just as a basic training tool, in the 30mins I was on for on the last session the HRM kept dropping out so I ignored it.

I would be very wary of using Virtual Power as a benchmark for comparison against other people. Comparing virtual to my Powertap was way out – my actual FTP (measured by a calibrated Powertap using Rubber Glove) is 304W. My Virtual Power FTP would need to be around 410W for the same effort.

That is how I justify my VP numbers in TR being far from reasonable 😀

As a training tool VP is very, very useful for those of us without real power meters so long as you appreciate the limitations. It has started me browsing for real Power Meters though which is worrying for my bank account…

Did Cartwright a couple of weeks ago. 60 mins, 4x10min intervals. Each starts a little below FTP then about halfway through the interval it gradually ramps up to about 110% FTP. I enjoyed it. Approved!

I’ve been enjoying a similar type of session that starts under FTP and ramps up but in the traditional 2×20 format and at slightly higher intensities for longer durations. It’s referred to as a “climbers 2×20” by a well respected coach on the weightweenies forum.

Warm up

5 minutes @ 95% FTP (95rpm)
5 minutes @ 100% FTP (90rpm)
5 minutes @ 105% FTP (85rpm)
5 minutes @ 110% FTP (80rpm)

5 minutes rest then repeat

Warm down

DanW, sounds pretty good. Is that a custom one? May have to knock one up.

By the way, anyone know if it’s possible to create a custom trainer for virtual power? I know TR just request the power at certain wheel speeds to create new trainers, and I’d like one that makes my turbo more closely match my power metre readings.

mrblobby just use your PM readings it can pick up most things

mikewsmith, I always use my PM on the turbo bike. It’s just that sometimes I pop other bikes on the turbo and it’s a pain to swap the wheels over. Would be nice if I had a slightly more accurate VP I could use for those occasional sessions, just save a bit of hassle.

DanW, sounds pretty good. Is that a custom one? May have to knock one up.

Yep, custom based on the recommendation from some training threads on Weightweenies

I’ve been trying to make a custom session which is:

Warm up

4x 30s sprint (Was set as 200% FTP, now 160% FTP in the custom TR session)
4x 30s “off”

5 minutes rest

Repeat the 30s “on” 30s “off” set

Warm down

I can physically make the session in the TR custom session maker software but it wouldn’t upload to the normal TR software so I can actually ride it. I originally had the “on” interval set at 200% FTP and wondered if it might be too high so TR doesn’t allow the session to be created but dropping it to 160% FTP still means I can’t upload the custom session. I have made other sessions since then and they upload fine, just something about this 30s “on, 30s “off” session which won’t upload. Any ideas?

Possible to take a similar session and edit it maybe? Not really had a play with the custom workout creator yet.

I’ve tried that (Iron is the closest pre-made session) and also tried cloning and editing on of my custom sessions which uploads fine. No idea why but I can’t get this traditional Tabata 30s on, 30 s off session to upload from the custom workout creator software…

The IF for this session is showing up as 0.0091 so there must be something about the content I’ve created which is really messing up TR

Worth dropping TR an email. They are usually really good at responding to these sorts of questions.

Hey guys,

Trevor DeRuisé here with TrainerRoad. The workout creator has a bug in it where sometimes untouched workouts have a very low intensity factor. The workout around is to just edit an interval and raise the target ftp up and back down. This is just telling the workout to recalculate itself. It will then fix itself.

Sorry about this bug, it’s on our list of things to fix.

Cool to have TR on STW 😀

None of the normal work arounds seem to fix this issue I’m having in creating the traditional tabata session described above. The IF is always 2 decimal places wrong.

I’ve been trying to solve this with Liz’s help…

The workout was published with an excellent internet connection whilst having both the workout creator open and the normal Trainerroad software open. What I have created shows fine in the workout creator but when clicking refresh in the Trainerroad software the message in the bottom right reads “upload error on submission”. It doesn’t do this with any session I’ve created besides this high %FTP “30s on, 30s off” session. I’ve tried starting from scratch, starting by cloning another existing session which uploaded fine, modified another session which uploaded fine, modified the existing “Iron” session and none of these approaches get in to the Trainerroad software to be able to ride.

All of this makes me think there is something about the content of the session which the software doesn’t like although I’ve no idea what this might be!