I wonder wether the dips – I had issues with my shorts, yes really – where I slowed/stopped have reduced the average. I wonder whether I should do it again without stopping to get a more accurate FTP or continue with this.

It estimates the FTP as a percentage of the average power over both intervals (there’s an explanation in the FAQ.) So you really need to go full gas over both intervals for their entire duration to get a decent estimate. If you paused or eased off during these intervals then your estimate will be lower than it should be.

Hmmm. I did. And on the second I spent ages ramping up as I misunderstood the meaning of the white dot (I thought I was supposed to follow it).

I could do it again Tuesday I guess

Were you ready to puke by the end of the last one and so stuffed riding a proper bike in a straight line might have been a mission, and super desperate to stop for the last 4mins of each set that only will power kept you going? If not, you have more left. It really has to be one of the worst physical experiences of your life if you have properly tested yourself. Consistent output is key and experience will give you the knowledge to know how hard to push early on and the confidence to know it is possible to keep going when every natural instinct tells you to stop.

Btw – your privacy settings means no one else can open the link you posted.

I changed my privacy, it should be visible.

On reflection, I did feel pretty sick, was struggling with eyes shut, teeth clenched, and in the second one trying to keep the Turbo still and was dizzy after the workout. I did have to sit down after, no I couldn’t have ridden a bike.

Obviously I’m just rubbish. Ah well that’s what this thing is here to improve. Having a look through others 8 mins though there’s plenty worse than me.

You do need to do a few of them I reckon to get to the point where you are getting a good result. Mostly as pacing is really important. Once you’ve done a few you’ll be better able to judge your effort. I think you’ve done some TT work so you should be pretty good at pacing anyway. And yes, if you’re shoes aren’t covered in vomit at the end then you’ve not gone hard enough 🙂

Edit: oh and I wouldn’t read too much into comparisons based on anything other than properly calibrated power meters. Virtual power is good for training though provided you keep everything consistent.

Appreciate that Me Blobby. I haven’t ever done a road TT Btw. Years of social MTb, 2 years of road, 1 with a club this is my first year road racing. 1 crit and 1 Xc race done to date.

More worried the next 10 weeks is based on the correct calculations so that I will actually improve.

I did my first proper 8 min test back in November and thought I’d gone as hard as I could (I even did a practice test a few days prior so that I could get used to it). After 6 weeks of doing a couple of sessions a week and getting used to the whole turbo thing, my FTP jumped from 146 to 183 – and I’m sure it wasn’t all fitness!

I definitely think there’s a learning curve (I’ve just done my 4th 8 min test and my FTP went up to 195 – a much smaller jump).

Kryton, a few issues which mean things aren’t as bad as you might think they are 😀

1) The test doesn’t reflect your true FTP for your current set up.

Lots of reasons for this! You said you were hungover and didn’t ride constantly for the 8 min tests. Big problems in calculating your true FTP! As Legolam says it is also incredibly hard to gauge how hard to ride on your first couple of goes at the test as well. You almost need to be conditioned to doing the test well before you start to get a true reflection of your overall “fitness” on the bike.

2) TR Virtual power may not reflect power recorded in other situations (e.g. racing outside).

TR vitual power should match up nicely with SRM or Powertap or similar but the values recorded depend on too many variables. I’d imagine they have calibrated everything to be reasonably close numbers-wise when using a road bike and tyre for example but using a 2 inch MTB tyre at 40PSI with the roller of the trainer cranked right in might have very different resistance and underestimate the power you are generating. Quite an extreme example but as most people have said throughout the thread, the purpose of TR virtual power isn’t to give you exact numbers in all situations but to give you a percentage to train too which is repeatable between sessions. Basically don’t change anything on the set up ever and compare yourself to yourself rather than comparing to others.

Also, even if using a SRM or similar on the turbo, most people tend to record a higher FTP when racing than during quite an artificial test indoors on a turbo. The feeling of riding the turbo and riding indoors being harder than a ride outside is well documented for a whole host of reasons. Also, big differences documented in riding against yourself vs riding against others in a racing situation. Again, not a bad thing necessarily as the job of the 8 min test is to set out how hard your other turbo sessions should be.

3) Even if all of the above were a true reflection of your FTP in terms of the numbers you get out, then the scale you are comparing to (Mr Blobby’s Cogan link) is a bit misleading IMO.

The Sorenson example in the link puts his FTP just under 6W/kg which according to the Table is a bottom end Pro- certainly not the case! I feel the labeling of the categories isn’t quite accurate and especially doesn’t translate well to MTB. The racing categories in the US also don’t directly relate to the categories people race in, in the UK too as far as I’m aware. I’d have thought an FTP of around 6 is a top level Pro-Tour roadie, mid to upper 5’s is Conti-Pro, low 5’s domestic pro/ competitive at Nationals, upper 4’s good national level amateur etc. We could all argue about these categories but basically my feeling is the Cogan table overestimates FTP for a given ability level and especially for MTB. I wouldn’t beat yourself up if the Table says you are just “moderate” 😀

Some more interesting reading would be here on Weightweenies. There’s a top National level Canadian MTB racer with an FTP of 4.7W/kg, US domestic road pro with an FTP of 5.6W/kg, Danish domestic road pro with an FTP of 3.9W/kg so you can see it is pretty variable and hard to assign a number to a racing ability.

I’d love to know the FTP of a top UK National XC racer or Endurance racer and I would imagine they aren’t anywhere near as high as the Cogan descriptions for road racing categories in the US. Anyone know these or have rough figures?

Numbers from Emil Lindgren for his 2012 season.

Pro Giant XC rider, top 15 in WC races, his 5min all in FTP is roughly 6.5W/kg:

Weight: racing 62-63. Offseason about 65-66.
Lenght:173cm
VO2 max/kg/min: 84 (65,5 kg) 5min all in intervall.
VO2 max/min: 5,5
Average Wattage 5min all in: 420
Anaerobic threshold: about 180bpm

FTP is the maximal steady state power over an hour so a 5 minute power of 6.5W/kg is quite low, no? Roughly 5-5.5W/kg FTP if you extrapolate using a typical power curve???

Quite a way off a TDF challenger expected to have an FTP (hour) of 6.5-6.6 W/kg (6.8W/kg FTP generally considered “above human”)and around the region of the Lanterne Rouge according to the article linked by Mr Blobby. So “World Class” has very different definitions in MTB and road. Not surprising given the huge money and support differences not to mention technical requirements between the two.

Roughly 5-5.5W/kg FTP if you extrapolate using a typical power curve???

Yeah I’d guess so.

Be interesting to see Nino Schurter ride the Tour of Switzerland/Romandie this year with the GreenEdge team, we’ll get a nice comparison with roadie pro’s. However looking at Jean-Christophe Perraud’s, (a TDF pro), excellent but not winning rides on the WC circuit, it’s certainly not all about FTP values in MTB

It’s certainly not all about FTP values in MTB

I agree. Far too many differences to stick a road pro straight in a WC MTB and expect instant success.

Schurter on the road… equally unsure how that will go but MTBers seem to make the transition to road better than the other way around. Interesting either way!

Thanks for the pro MTB numbers too- hopefully it reassures Kryton that an off form 8 minute test when hungover isn’t a barrier to MTB glory 😆

Thanks for the pro MTB numbers too- hopefully it reassures Kryton that an off form 8 minute test when hungover isn’t a barrier to MTB glory

Indeed, thanks DanW for taking the time. I’ll continue with what was recorded as a base. Over the next 10 weeks four of the weekend intervals from weeks 6-10 will be replaced with crits with my main event target fir week 10 so I will be tested / pushed before my next 8 week test.

Just FYI really, my first crit at the beginning of this month over 1:05 was an average of 240w albeit estimated by strava :-). For those of you that know hog hill you’ll know the hill will have contributed.

Wouldn’t pay too much attention to FTP/kg IMO, mine looks lovely according the “graph” but I’m still getting spanked by by boys with 2 stone on me, no good being able to climb when you’ve been dropped on the way to it haha! I’d exchange a few moar Watts for a few kg!

Some old Watts produced at VO2 Max for some of the Rabo guys. Doesn’t mean much in isolation but interesting none the less.

is it only the 8 / 20 minute tests that suggest an adjustment to FTP?

Yes I think it is dirtyrider.

Monstered myself tonight as my virtual power isn’t quite in line with my where my PowerTap was. Pleasantly destroyed.

Unpleasantly destroyed by a 3 week old miss blobby jr here. Doing the occasional Black to keep the legs spinning, really can’t manage much more. It pains me to watch fitness ebb away.

Got the hang of / am focussed on maintaining power during the interval levels now, often hitting 100%. Just doing Langille this week – 3 x 10 mins at 95-99ftp for FTP increase.

Although I do feel I’m working during the workout, I’m find this easier than expected. I appreciate that the 3 x 3 mins at 130% FTP don’t start until next week and 6 x 2 mins at 140% FTP until week 7 or so. 😯

is it only the 8 / 20 minute tests that suggest an adjustment to FTP?

Strictly speaking, no, since it is possible to infer a 60 minute maximal effort from shorter efforts of any duration against a “typical” power curve. Raising the power you can sustain for shorter durations will increase the power you can sustain for longer durations (i.e. FTP, when talking about your 60 minute power). How accurate any of these are or how they relate to your actual FTP though is the main issue. The 8 minute and 20 minute testing protocols are the most widely used and accepted though so are best to stick to.

Some good points raised about it here on TR. In my mind the 8 minute test is better since there is shorter suffering but the blog raises the interesting point that most people just can’t go hard enough in 8 minutes to actually reflect their FTP using the accepted calculations. Kind of a lack of conditioning and mental approach to the 8 min test for most people I guess.

For people who have tried both the 8 and 20 minute tests, do you find the two approaches yield consistent FTP estimates (in theory they should!)

There is also a big difference between just warming up and doing an 8 minute interval and doing the entire 8 minute testing protocol which has more to than just going hard for 8 minutes. The testing protocol aims to do more than just record your fresh 8 minute power and take some calculations from that.

So Trainerroad have announced on Facebook that they are close to releasing a MTB training plan. Frankly, it can’t come soon enough for me – the cyclocross training plan is killing me!

Tomorrows session (help!)

which ones that? did black the other day, quite boring

Looks fun 🙂

Just trying to keep things ticking over here for the next few weeks until a bit less tired. Did Spruce Knob the other day, 90 minutes with 2×30 at 85% FTP, quite enjoyed it.

Dirty rider, black is a bit dull (been doing it a lot recently.) Quite handy for a recovery/easy day though and easy enough to watch some telly over. Birch is much the same but only 45 mins!

did 121 miles on 11/3/14 – 80 on road, switched to MTB for 30 then 11 home on the road bike, 121 in total, 9 hours in the saddle, (MTB miles were slow, usual Tuesday night group) – rolled 10 miles to the LBS today,

Mrs at work 3 out of the next 4 days, 14 hour shifts, no chance of getting out, 3 hours after the kids go to bed (don’t have any Sufferfest, in 0.5Mb hell this week)

thinking some sort of recovery/light tomorrow, all in Friday, Saturday off, light sunday and back out on the road/trail Monday

recommended sessions?

I’ve got a rare weekend off racing and was looking forward to some long rides and chaingangs….instead my coach has put in a 20min FTP test. 👿 🙄 I guess its going to be a very grim 20mins….

So now I’m concerned about the 8. Min FTP test.

Last night I did Givens – 6 x 110 – 130% 3min internals. I’m at week 3. Whilst I wouldn’t have described the hardest ones as easy, and they did demand a lot of focus and felt hard, I certainly wasn’t overstretched and have nothing but mere distant reminder in my legs this morning.

Now whilst the rest periods are much easier than I ever did in the tctp, I’m wondering if this is set too easy for me. What’s others experience of givens – should I have been puking?

Output was 248 watts @ 37kph measured by virtual power at 130% FTP.

just done Lazy Mountain, recovery ride,

found it hard to ride at such a low wattage with a decent cadence, FTP is 310, Tacx Satori on Level 5

20 minutes at 170, had to be in 39/25

any tips?

A “recovery ride” will never be particularly engaging. I’d use something like Birch, Black, Colosseum, Baxter or Perkins depending on the length you want to ride. They are nicely varied in terms of small changes in intensity for short “intervals” so are far more engaging. If they mean going harder than you wish then bump down the % to the zone you’d rather ride in. Alternatively, a ride like the one you did but with 5x 30-60s single leg drills at the start and maybe some medium hard (perhaps 130% FTP) 10s efforts at high cadence at the end can be nice to wake the legs up for the next few days of riding. Anything to help the legs get going again but give the mind something to focus on really.

MTB Training Plans gone live

again, thanks for the tips DanW – appreciated

So now I’m concerned about the 8. Min FTP test.

Last night I did Givens – 6 x 110 – 130% 3min internals. I’m at week 3. Whilst I wouldn’t have described the hardest ones as easy, and they did demand a lot of focus and felt hard, I certainly wasn’t overstretched and have nothing but mere distant reminder in my legs this morning.

Now whilst the rest periods are much easier than I ever did in the tctp, I’m wondering if this is set too easy for me. What’s others experience of givens – should I have been puking?I reckon that for those of us who are not used to working out with power and therefore don’t even have the vaguest of ideas where our FTP lies, finding the limit is a bit of a moving feast and likely to take a few weeks of tweaking as we test our physical and mental capacity.

I’m a recreational rider and have never tested my FTP, followed a structured training plan or trained indoors (rollers for me), but this is how I’ve progressed over the last 6 weeks or so:

25/1 > 8min test > 234w
26/1 > Carson > felt too easy, so decided to do 8 min test again

** Started Sweet Spot Intermediate Base II **

28/1 > 8 min test > 263w (yeaaah baby…who’s The Daddy now?!)
30/1 > Lamarck > ‘failed’ final interval 4 of 4 (target 263, actual 243) 😳 😀

I was disappointed not to complete the workout on target, but felt that the failure was psychological rather than physical (not being used to prolonged efforts at FTP with nothing but an increasingly slow countdown timer to focus on!) so resolved to leave the FTP where it was and continue with the plan.

Next 6 workouts completed on target, so I’ve been manually adjusting my FTP while continuing with the sweet spot plan:

9/2 > FTP from 263 to 270
11/2 > 270 to 275
14/2 > 275 to 280
2/3 > 280 to 290
6/3 > 290 to 300

All workouts completed at or above target until Powell (4 sets of 3×3-minute VO2max repeats @ 110-125%FTP), the final workout in the Sweet Spot plan and my first at 300w…I packed it in at 60 minutes into a 90 min workout, after the firs 2 sets.

Again, I’m not going to reduce the FTP just yet (I’ve since completed Lamarck @ 300w) but I’ll go back to Powell a bit more determined and fueled up properly, as much for the psychological boost as the physical.

As I say, a moving feast! If you think the workouts are too easy, then up your FTP 5 points at a time until you hit a limit…then have another go at that limit.

As for throwing up, I don’t think that should be a goal! 😉
Givens doesn’t look overly tough, not many intervals and plenty of rest between.
Powell has been the toughest for me, forgetting the attempt I failed @ 300 FTP, I completed it at 280 and during the final set of intervals I was starting to get light headed and see stars…nothing mental but enough of a signal that I was near my limit.

Lamarck is a good indicator as to whether your FTP is there, or thereabouts; 4×10 mins @ 100% FTP with 2 mins rest between.

Anyway, thanks for the thread folks, lots of good info and inspiration and TrainerRoad itself has been a revelation in terms of getting me motivated to train indoors while the weather was shite. Only wish I’d started in Nov instead of Jan!

As another recreational rider, I have to echo rusty’s comments- the first ftp test was a mock exam in hindsight, no idea how to pace myself, or any way to gauge my abilities.
Things are a bit different now 🙂

“Training with power” has been a real revelation- looking at any given workout I know that using perceived effort/heartrate I’d having been backing off in the later stages, and justifying it by looking at the hr graphs. Moving to power means that I can no longer excuse easing up- it’s helping with mental toughness, as well as fitness.

One other thing- I started out on virtual power- it’s tricky to keep the setup identical from session to session especially if you actually ride the bike- tyre pressure and tightening down the roller make too big a difference to the effort required, so I ended up going the Powertap route. A bit of a shock- I had to drop my ftp by 12% to keep making the numbers, I guess due to virtual power inaccuracies, but at least I know that I’m consistent from session to session now. It was a big investment- I’d much rather have spent the money on some bling for the mtb, but I reckon that it’s worth it in terms of fitness.

9/2 > FTP from 263 to 270
11/2 > 270 to 275
14/2 > 275 to 280
2/3 > 280 to 290
6/3 > 290 to 300

that looks like too much too quick to me. no expert though and maybe you started low….

that looks like too much too quick to me. no expert though and maybe you started low….

Yeah, undoubtedly…but that’s the point I’m making; for those of us with no FTP benchmark to begin with and who aren’t used to the physical and perhaps, more importantly, the psychological effort required, it’s all a bit ‘finger in the air’ to start with.

Each of those 5-10w increases came after one or two workouts where I was able to meet or exceed the target, so it seemed fair enough to bump my FTP by a few watts.

Here you go > missyclamps

FTP up 10% having not tested for 8 weeks. Pretty happy with that. Partly a result of starting to focus a bit more on what I’m doing on the bike throughout the week (i.e. early gains expected with being new to having decent structure), partly knowing more what to expect from the test, partly lots of other things. Nevertheless I’d rather go up than down.

how do people mix the training plans with actual riding?

started the MTB High Volume, FTP 310, good base fitness

however did the 1st 2 sessions, then went for a ride on day 3, much longer/harder than the planned session, had 2 rest days and tomorrow i can ride outdoors rather than the planned trainer session, then Friday/Saturday/Sunday I’m indoors with kids as wife at work,

should i ignore the training plan as i cannot actually commit as ill be riding outside when i can, or do i sort of follow it substituting trainer sessions/rides

My view of that is, that during the week while I’m working, or if the weather is really bad at the weekend I can get 2/3 structured sessions in per week in evening or if wfh in lunchtimes.

Then at the weekend I’m either riding a crit/xc race which to me is a substitute for one of the sessions, or a club ride which is equally so in a different way.

This weekend I’ll be at CyB, and I’ve already set my self the expectation that although the rest of the long weekend will be social pace, Saturday’s climbs will effectively be O/U’s for me – in line with my plan (week 4 Novice racer low volume).

The lack of activity on the thread must be a good indicator that the weather has been better 😀

So to follow on the theme of Dirty Rider’s question… assuming more rides will be outside over the Spring and Summer, what would be the one main Turbo session you’d be looking to maintain?

Something LTT or VO2 Max based seems to make sense since these are the hardest to control or maintain for extended periods outside. More Endurance based rides are more easily achieved outside and anaerobic stuff is so short it is easy to fit in to outdoor rides too. Does that sound fair?

Interesting to see Ant White appears to like what appears to be a combined VO2 Max/ LTT session as the go to turbo session which fits with my thinking above.

My usual turbo training session is an hour, it consists of 2 x 5 mins intervals, a 20 minute interval, and then 2 more 5 minute intervals. One leg drills are in-between. The intervals are set at various power levels from a while back, which cause enough suffering to be worthwhile. They kind of mimic the longer climbs that occur in my more important races and try to drive lactic acid tolerance up a bit.